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France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

reuters.com

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Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#11

Post by [deleted] »

microcolonel wrote: post #6
pjc50 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They benefit from having the market ; the entire set of infrastructure and society that makes it possible to make money there. Google has no divine right to sell into that market without taxes or tariffs any more than European companies have to sell into the US. But there's a very particularly European problem here, that of cross-state revenue recognition. A gross receipts tax or similar is one solution, which is als…

The government is not the market, the people are the market. If the government is in the business of selling the public to multinational corporations, something is truly wrong.

[deleted]

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#12

Post by pjc50 »

microcolonel wrote: post #6
pjc50 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They benefit from having the market ; the entire set of infrastructure and society that makes it possible to make money there. Google has no divine right to sell into that market without taxes or tariffs any more than European companies have to sell into the US. But there's a very particularly European problem here, that of cross-state revenue recognition. A gross receipts tax or similar is one solution, which is als…

The government is not the market, the people are the market. If the government is in the business of selling the public to multinational corporations, something is truly wrong.

L'etat, c'est nous.

(Yes, that's a joke in French, but I'm not really about to type a treatise on popular sovereignty in the Spanish constitution for two reasons. Firstly I'm on a phone, and secondly I know nothing about it)

I do wish one day we could have a discussion that didn't have to argue the existence of gonvernment and taxation from first principles, but today is not that day.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#13

Post by microcolonel »

Oletros wrote: post #10
microcolonel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is not responsible for the corrupt and decadent governments in countries they don't operate out of; they're hardly responsible for it where they do operate. When China manipulates the markets so much that they collapse, and when Sweden spends its way into poverty, it will not be Google's fault, nor their responsibility to pay for it.

Are you saying that Apple or Google don't operate in Spain or France? What the heck has to do your claim of Spain or France being corrupt with Apple or Google declaring losses with record revenues?

> Are you saying that Apple or Google don't operate in Spain or France?

While technically they do have offices in Spain and France, they are mainly service offices. The critical operations of Google are carried out in the United States, and to a (far) lesser extent, Canada, Japan, and various other places.

> What the heck has to do your claim of Spain or France being corrupt with Apple or Google declaring losses with record revenues?

It's called expenditure, the vast majority of the wealth Apple and Google generate involves spending a lot of the wealth they made in the past. This is explicitly protected by the tax codes of basically any nation worth doing business in.

Spain, for example, has a rather meh economy, meanwhile the state is funneling public funds into things like a concentrated solar plant which will probably never generate more revenue than expenditure. If not corrupt, then that is at least decadent.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#14

Post by the8472 »

microcolonel wrote: post #2

The idea of a revenue tax of course contradicts the stated justifications for existing taxes on business: the funding of ephemeral services which contribute indirectly to the business's revenue. Google benefits from approximately no government infrastructure in France, Germany, Italy, or Spain, but they want to get their grubby hands on it nonetheless.

> Google benefits from approximately no government infrastructure in France, Germany, Italy, or Spain

They directly depend on the infrastructure to reach their customers. And they indirectly depend on the people having a high standard of living which also requires infrastructure. If your country is a 3rd-world shithole without infrastructure you'll have a very hard time selling your products which sit high on maslow's hierarchy.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#15

Post by 0x4a42 »

pjc50 wrote: post #12
microcolonel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government is not the market, the people are the market. If the government is in the business of selling the public to multinational corporations, something is truly wrong.

L'etat, c'est nous. (Yes, that's a joke in French, but I'm not really about to type a treatise on popular sovereignty in the Spanish constitution for two reasons. Firstly I'm on a phone, and secondly I know nothing about it) I do wish one day we could have a discussion that didn't have to argue the existence of gonvernment and taxation from first principles, but today is not that day.

Oui !

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#16

Post by sddfd »

This is not about taxing revenues instead of profits.

This is about taxing EU-wide profits in EU countries proportional to the revenues generated in that country.

At the moment, many big tech companies use bookkeeping tricks to make it look like all their profit is generated in, for example, Ireland, while the revenue is generated in other EU counties.

Unfortunately, Ireland has special tax rates for these companies (the legality of which is contested), so their EU-wide effective tax rate is often ~1%.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#17

Post by Oletros »

microcolonel wrote: post #13
Oletros wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that Apple or Google don't operate in Spain or France? What the heck has to do your claim of Spain or France being corrupt with Apple or Google declaring losses with record revenues?

> Are you saying that Apple or Google don't operate in Spain or France? While technically they do have offices in Spain and France, they are mainly service offices. The critical operations of Google are carried out in the United States, and to a (far) lesser extent, Canada, Japan, and various other places. > What the heck has to do your claim of Spain or France being corrupt with Apple or Google declaring losses with…

Ah, you're just joking, got it

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#18

Post by pjc50 »

microcolonel wrote: post #7
llukas wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you can take Googles content, intellectual property, or patents and do what you like? France, Germany, Italy or Spain law enforcement wont do anything? This is one of the key infrastructure that government provides and Google depends.

No, their courts are guided by treaty to expose citizens to action on the patents of other countries, just as courts in other countries are guided by those same treaties to expose theirs. As far as I understand, all treaties of this sort are bilateral.

But those courts are still infrastructure, no?

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#19

Post by andrepd »

microcolonel wrote: post #8
Oletros wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Google or Apple declares losses in Spain having record revenues so they have fiscal benefits when that country has a very big crisis then we have a big problem. But hey, those countries ajust want to get their grubby hand in those poor companies.

Google is not responsible for the corrupt and decadent governments in countries they don't operate out of; they're hardly responsible for it where they do operate. When China manipulates the markets so much that they collapse, and when Sweden spends its way into poverty, it will not be Google's fault, nor their responsibility to pay for it.

Decadent? I take issue. Google, like virtually every large corporation in the world, spends a significant amount of time and resources finding the optimal way to pay the least amount of taxes, through loopholes, borderline or actually illegal schemes, lobbying etc. We're supposed to blame the countries for being defrauded in this way, not the multinationals doing the defrauding? Come off it.

You want to do business in a country, you abide by the laws of that country. Governments serve their citizens and their interests. Whatever is convenient for corporations has (or should have) _zero_ bearing on any decisions. In true liberal style: if they don't like the rules they're welcome to go elsewhere.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#20

Post by microcolonel »

pjc50 wrote: post #12
microcolonel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government is not the market, the people are the market. If the government is in the business of selling the public to multinational corporations, something is truly wrong.

L'etat, c'est nous. (Yes, that's a joke in French, but I'm not really about to type a treatise on popular sovereignty in the Spanish constitution for two reasons. Firstly I'm on a phone, and secondly I know nothing about it) I do wish one day we could have a discussion that didn't have to argue the existence of gonvernment and taxation from first principles, but today is not that day.

Néanmoins, nous ne sommes pas l'état.

A tax on Spanish and French revenues is a tax on Spanish and French consumption, which is already charged. If it is advertising revenue, then the tax will be charged on the advertised products and services and likely also on the charges to the advertisers.

L'état, c'est certains d'entre nous!

> I do wish one day we could have a discussion that didn't have to argue the existence of gonvernment and taxation from first principles, but today is not that day.

I'm not arguing for or against taxation as a whole in any sense, with or without first principles. I'm arguing that this particular instantiation does not fit the justifications for the existing tax regime, and serves no purpose but to increase the price of services to the people in these countries (and in order to fund something which has not even been defined).

This taxation, not part of law in any of these countries, is effectively a transaction tax. If the goal is to discourage transactions, then well, go ahead and levy it. Pat yourself on the back knowing that your citizens are doing less business and more of their money is going to the state for whatever purpose the state sees fit.

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