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In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

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Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#11

Post by AdeptusAquinas »

A lot of the people who hold these sort of viewpoints in the US would benefit immensely from visiting and even living for a while in literally any other western democracy, or even just the English-speaking ones.

I can't think of any country in the western world who has a social welfare system on the same low level as the US - and yet we don't have such a 'decline in social indicators'. Quite the opposite. And we are not perfect: the upcoming NZ election is pointing out all the remaining flaws in our society, along with futile attempts to fix them by empty-promising politicians. But no one would ever say we are not vastly better off than the average US citizen, so clearly 'social welfare' is not the problem.

Maybe having a society where a random illness or infection doesn't destroy you economically - unless you are slaved to your employer with health insurance - might help fix things? Or maybe endless foreign wars and an influx of PTSD veterans along with an outflow of patriotically brain washed kids is not healthy? Maybe a political system where a egotistical demagogue can hijack the government is a flaw to correct?

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#12

Post by rukittenme »

wildmusings wrote: post #4
random023987 wrote: post #2

I think underlying many of these discussions is a fundamental question: "If not all cultures and values are equally successful in modern society, should we (as a society) encourage people to adopt a more successful values, or should we adapt society to make all cultures and values equally successful?" (edit: obviously I have biases, but I tried to phase this in a way that masked my biases. If there's a more neutral w…

The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Culture is much more than what food you eat and music you listen to. This reminds me of a famous Tocqueville quote: There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equali…

I would recommend people read or re-read "Democracy in America". I've read it several times and each time I find a new layer of truth in the work.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#13

Post by wildmusings »

chickenfries wrote: post #6
wildmusings wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Culture is much more than what food you eat and music you listen to. This reminds me of a famous Tocqueville quote: There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equali…

Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.

I prefer positive examples. It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#14

Post by darawk »

chickenfries wrote: post #6
wildmusings wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Culture is much more than what food you eat and music you listen to. This reminds me of a famous Tocqueville quote: There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equali…

Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.

It is a fact that different cultures value things differently. Japanese culture has different values than Hawaiian culture, or southern white culture. Where there is difference in kind, there is different in adaptation. Every culture likely has its advantages in some areas, but not every one of those areas is deemed valuable by a modern society or economy. It is an inescapable fact that some ways of living, and some systems of moral and social values are more conducive to a modern, democratic capitalist society than others.

What we choose to do about that is up for debate. The fact of the situation, however, is not.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#15

Post by [deleted] »

chickenfries wrote: post #6
wildmusings wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Culture is much more than what food you eat and music you listen to. This reminds me of a famous Tocqueville quote: There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equali…

Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.

[deleted]

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#16

Post by contravariant »

random023987 wrote: post #2

I think underlying many of these discussions is a fundamental question: "If not all cultures and values are equally successful in modern society, should we (as a society) encourage people to adopt a more successful values, or should we adapt society to make all cultures and values equally successful?" (edit: obviously I have biases, but I tried to phase this in a way that masked my biases. If there's a more neutral w…

>should we adapt society to make all cultures and values equally successful?

Given that this includes people who value a society where particular values aren't successful, it is probably not possible to have a society like that.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#17

Post by Cacti »

"if understood within their sociocultural context" is akin to saying "if you agree with all of our assumptions". It's a bullshit, vapid argument no matter how you use it, and the students should be embarrassed to be using such childish arguments. But of course they're aren't, because they're children.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#18

Post by danfolkes »

Here is a follow-up article written by one of the 33 members of the University of Pennsylvania Law School faculty to sign a letter criticizing Amy Wax:

Don’t Care if Amy Wax Is Politically Incorrect; I Do Care that She’s Empirically Incorrect

https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/09/03/i-dont-care-if-amy-w...

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#19

Post by padseeker »

"Nor are the single-parent, antisocial habits, prevalent among some working-class whites; the anti-“acting white” rap culture of inner-city blacks; the anti-assimilation ideas gaining ground among some Hispanic immigrants"

Already you lost me. There are plenty of single parents out of wedlock children in very white states like West Virginia, Kentucky, etc. How is rap culture or black people responsible for the actions of white people in these areas?

I live in a big city, my kids go to a bilingual school. Every parent there, hispanic or not, want their kids to do well, to get a good education, go to college, succeed professionally and personally. All of them have absorbed some American attitudes to one degree or another. The few parents who don't speak english well want their children to do so. None of these people are against assimilating.

There may be legitimate concerns of substance here, about having children out of wedlock, parents who are stretched thin. But this paragraph right here reads like thinly veiled racism targeted towards blacks and hispanics. All the sociological rhetoric does not hide this at all.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#20

Post by coldtea »

taylodl wrote: post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

>we're saying both of these states are equal - because all cultures are equal - then where's the impetus for any new legislation? Where's the drive for change?

To play the devil's advocate (since I don't agree that all cultures are equal), three answer:

1) Mere preference/taste.

2) Who said "change is required"?

3) Within a culture we might have criteria to stand as impetus for change/legislation etc inside the culture. So the statement just means that we can't use them to judge another's culture but only our own.

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