America’s First Meat-Free Fast-Food Restaurant Is Getting Ready to Expand • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s First Meat-Free Fast-Food Restaurant Is Getting Ready to Expand

#11

Post by kantspel » Sat, Sep 02, 2017, 10:16 AM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

kantspel wrote: post #6

good to see, especially since killing animals for food is prima facie morally wrong (according to most of the philosophers in the field)

I don’t think it’s reasonable to make such a bold claim without some citations…

sure! I've got access to a resource bank that has a ton of philosophical papers on the topic of veganism etc. The vast majority are pro, but there are some anti. because hn doesn't do markdown, I'm just gonna paste the names, if you want to read the papers have a search and you should find them.

"A Moral Argument for Veganism" Dan Hooley, Nathan Nobis (General animal ethics, pro vegan, deductive argument)

"The Ethical Basis for Veganism" Tristram McPherson (General animal ethics, pro vegan)

"How to Argue for (and against) Ethical Veganism" Tristram McPherson

"Why I am a vegan (and you should be one too)" Tristram McPherson (General animal Ethics, pro vegan)

"A Case for Ethical Veganism: Intuitive and methodological consideration" Tristram McPherson (pro, general, methodology in ethics, debunking arguments)

NOTE to access McPherson's papers, click the arrow icon in the upper-right hand of the screen and then download.

"SCHOPENHAUER ON THE RIGHTS OF ANIMALS" Stephen Puryear (Animal ethics, animal rights view based on sentience, pro vegn)

"Sentience, Rationality, and Moral Status: A Further Reply to Hsiao" Stephen Puryear (Animal ethics, sentience view, deductive argument, reply to rationality needed for moral status)

NOTE Professor Puryear will be doing an AMA on r/philosophy November 14th

"In Defense of Eating Meat" Timothy Hsiao (Animal ethics, anti-vegan, animals have no moral status)

"PUPPIES, PIGS, AND PEOPLE: EATING MEAT AND MARGINAL CASES" Alastair Norcross (General animal ethics, pro-vegan)

"The Comparative Badness for Animals of Suffering and Death" Jeff McMahan (Animal ethics, humane omnivorism, badness of death discussion, pretty pro vegan)

"Eating animals the nice way" Jeff McMahan (Animal ethics, arguments for and against humane omnivorism, pro-vegan)

"Animals" Jeff McMahan (animal ethics, pro vegan)

"Moral Vegetarianism from a Very Broad Basis" David DeGrazia (animal ethics, pro vegan)

"Animal Pain and Welfare: can pain sometimes be worse for them than for us" Sahar Akhtar (animal ethics, animal pain)

"The Case Against Meat" Ben Bramble (animal ethics, deductive argument, pro vegan)

"A Kantian Case for Animal Rights" Christine M. Korsgaard" (animal ethics, pro vegan, deontological argument)

"Kantian Ethics, Animals, and the Law" Christine M Korsgaard (animal ethics, animal rights discussion, animals and the law discussion)

"Fellow Creatures: Kantian Ethics and Our Duties to Animals" CHRISTINE M. KORSGAARD (animal ethics, deontological, pro vegan)

"INTERACTING WITH ANIMALS: A KANTIAN ACCOUNT" christine m. korsgaard (animal ethics, deontological, pro vegan)

"Is it Wrong to Eat Meat from Factory Farms? If So, Why?" Mark Bryant Budolfson (animal ethics, kinda pro-vegan, kinda anti-vegan)

"Consumer Ethics, Harm Footprints, and the Empirical Dimensions of Food Choices" Mark Budolfson (animal ethics, ethical consumerism, harm footprints, environmental footprints, kinda anti-vegan, kinda pro-vegan, helpful chart

"The Inefficacy Objection to Consequentialism and the Problem with the Expected Consequences Response" Mark Budolfson (animal ethics, inefficacy objection, rather anti-vegan, anti-utilitarian)

NOTE if links to Budolfson don't work, here's his website: http://www.budolfson.com/papers

"Strict Vegetarianism is Immoral" Donald Bruckner (animal ethics, anti vegan):

"The Moral Status of Animals" SEP entry

"Animal Consciousness" SEP entry

"Animal Cognition" SEP entry

"The Grounds of Moral Status" SEP entry

"The Moral Argument for Vegetarianism" James Rachels (Animal ethics, pro vegn, text is sideways sorry mercifully short, well written)

"Constraints and Animals" Excerpted from Anarchy, State, and Utopia Robert Nozick (animal ethics, pro, brief)

"Don’t Know, Don’t Kill: Moral Ignorance, Culpability, and Caution" Alexander A. Guerrero (Moral ignorance and Culpability, proVeg)

"THE MORAL SIGNIFICANCE OF ANIMAL PAIN AND ANIMAL DEATH" Elizabeth Harman (animal ethics, causing animal pain/ causing death asymmetry)

"Applying Virtue Ethics to Our Treatment of the Other Animals" Rosalind Hursthouse (animal ethics, pro, virtue ethics defense)

"ANIMAL MINDS AND THEIR MORAL SIGNIFICANCE" Peter Carruthers (animal ethics, pain, consciousness/cognition, kinda pro, kinda anti)

"A direct Kantian duty to animals" Michael Cholbi (animal ethics, pro, revised Kantian to accommodate duties to animals)

"The Benefit of Regan’s Doubt: Moral Caution and the Ethics of Eating" Robert Bass (pro, moral caution, response to Regan)

"Is Death Bad for a Cow?" Ben Bradley (pro, badness of death, desire-based value).

"Singer on Killing Animals" SHELLY KAGAN (pro, wrongness of killing/badness of death, objectionable painless killing, replacability, Peter Singer, preference utilitarianism).

"Do I Make a Difference" Shelly Kagan (pro, strong consequentialist reply to causal impotence/inefficacy objection)

"The Case for Animal Rights" by Tom Regan (pro, deontological/rights view/abolitionist argument, distillation of larger work in article form)

"Utilitarianism and Vegetarianism" Peter Singer (General animal ethics, pro vegan, individual efficacy on welfare argument)

"Equality for Animals?" Peter Singer (pro, utilitarian, excerpt from "Practical Ethics")

"The Animal Liberation Movement" Peter Singer (pro, utilitarian, discussion of animal lib movement, animal equality, equal consideration of interests, and more!)

"Do Animals Feel Pain?" by Peter Singer (pro, brief but useful account of animal pain)

"ARE ANIMALS PERSONS?" Mark Rowlands (pro, personhood, self-awareness, animal rights

"Animal Rights" Mark Rowlands (pro, animals rights overview)

"Contractarianism and Animal Rights" Mark Rowlands (pro, modified Rawlsian Contractarianism justifying direct moral status to animals)

"Contractualism and Our Duties to Nonhuman Animals" Matthew Talbert (pro, Scanlon Contractualism argument for animals)

"Expanding the Social Contract" Paola Cavalieri and Will Kymlicka (pro, Contractarianism including animals, ANNOYING SIDEWAYS TEXT!)

"Vegetarianism" Stuart Rachels (pro, animal ethics overview, factory farm practices detailed, utilitarian argument)

"ANIMALS & ETHICS 101: Thinking Critically About Animal Rights" NATHAN NOBIS -- pro, book (2016) "providing an overview of the current debates about the nature and extent of our moral obligations to animals."

"Animals and Ethics" IEP entry

Michael Huemer arguing against factory farm practices in a pretty interesting online debate with Bryan Caplan about bugs:

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2016/10/bugs.html

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2016/10/huemer_on_ethic....

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2016/10/reply_to_huemer....

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2016/10/huemer_replies.h...

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2016/10/the_huemer_grap....

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2016/10/yet_another_rep....

"The Claims of Animals and the Needs of Strangers: Two Cases of Imperfect Right" Christine M. Korsgaard, pro, animal rights, legal rights.

"Animal Selves and the Good" Christine M. Korsgaard, pro, axiology, "why saying humans are more valuable than non-human animals makes no sense."

"Just Like All the Other Animals of the Earth: Our ethical attitudes toward fellow creatures are curiously unstable" Christine Korsgaard, pro, general, philosophical traditional views on animals (Hume, Kant)

"Moral Animals: Human Beings and the Other Animals" Christine M. Korsgaard: "Animals have moral claims, we seem to think, but unlike the claims of our fellow humans, they are easily overridden. I call this the moral asymmetry and ask whether anything in the nature of the good or the right could justify it[...] I conclude that although both of these arguments do reflect important moral truths, neither justifies the asymmetry."

Re: America’s First Meat-Free Fast-Food Restaurant Is Getting Ready to Expand

#12

Post by solarengineer » Sat, Sep 02, 2017, 11:39 AM UTC

kantspel wrote: post #10

kantspel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That said, I understand that humans need meat to survive We don't. All the major dietetic organisations agree that you can be perfectly healthy on a vegetarian/vegan diet.

because I'm getting downvoted, I'll add proof. because hn doesn't do markdown, I can't add the links, but if you search for them you will find the sources on google, ddg whatever. All the major dietetics and health organizations in the world agree that vegan and vegetarian diets are just as healthy as omnivorous diets. Here are links to what some of them have to say on the subject: Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics…

I have been having veggies and fruits and have cut out sugar (especially white sugar) since Jan 2015. After getting more strict about this diet as well as my body weight exercise since May 16 this year, I have been losing between 50 gms to 100 gms of body fat per day. I check on a digital weighing scale that reports weight in kilos and pounds, BMI, body fat %, muscle %, water % and bone density.

About B12: It is produced in human and animal gut by bacteria that is present in soil. The B12 in our gut is too far down to be injected. This bacteria needs the mineral cobalt. See [1][2][3]

I was also surprised to learn that there is no religious "mandate" of sacrificing animals. See the Vegan Muslim Initiative [4]. I have not yet researched what the other religions say about the killing of animals.

I am of the opinion that even if a religious book were to deem it acceptable to kill animals, we today have the means to live off plants and the awareness and experience to know that various animals are sentient. We can continue to put ourselves first without requiring that we take an animal's life for this.

[1] https://www.riseofthevegan.com/blog/b12-is-not-just-a-vegan-... [2] https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/... [3] https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/... [4] https://veganmuslims.com

Re: America’s First Meat-Free Fast-Food Restaurant Is Getting Ready to Expand

#13

Post by rasz » Sat, Sep 02, 2017, 1:43 PM UTC

forkLding wrote: post #4

Recently been struggling with not the guilt that I'm killing and eating animals but rather the fact that in factory farms, we are encouraging the rapid raping of animals, forcing them to have children and then rapidly killing off their children, and repeating this process. All while restricting the space that they get to live in. We always want a humane way to end an animal or pest's life but I'm not too sure a facto…

Making all your friends watch Okja (2017) is a surprisingly effective way of influencing their opinion on the subject.

Re: America’s First Meat-Free Fast-Food Restaurant Is Getting Ready to Expand

#14

Post by vikascoder » Sat, Sep 02, 2017, 2:19 PM UTC

kantspel wrote: post #10

kantspel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That said, I understand that humans need meat to survive We don't. All the major dietetic organisations agree that you can be perfectly healthy on a vegetarian/vegan diet.

because I'm getting downvoted, I'll add proof. because hn doesn't do markdown, I can't add the links, but if you search for them you will find the sources on google, ddg whatever. All the major dietetics and health organizations in the world agree that vegan and vegetarian diets are just as healthy as omnivorous diets. Here are links to what some of them have to say on the subject: Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics…

As an Indian it always amuses me to see folks in western nations tying themselves in knots over the vegeterianism debates. The possibility of eating a 100 percent veg diet never raises the kind of reaction that I see around here since its a way of life for a huge number of people in India.

There are a wealth of lentil protiens, plants and fruits supplemented by milk based side items like yoghurt and cottage cheese which provide for the possibility of having a vegan only lifestyle. This is more driven by meat centric recipes and food culture prevalent here and the subsequent lack of vegeterian food culture. There are bazillion recipes involving yellow, green, black lentils of all kinds, chickpeas, beans, dried peas, okra, eggplants, multiple gourds, there are tons of veggies I barely remember the english names of and then the whole gamut of wheat breads. naans, rotis, flaky fried pan breads coupled with all kinds of rice preps, basmati rice, biryanis, the pilafs and pulaos, coconut, maize etc etc. So not only there are tons of vegeterian options, there are all great tasting options. Here eating vegan is like "meh tastimg food".

In my home backnin Delhi, cooking chicken was reserved for special occasions once or twice a month and the daily diet was all Vegan. It was only after I moved abroad was the need to have a "meat protien" daily became part of the conversation. Everytime I hear this debate I go like, "you guys have no idea how good tasting vegeterian food can be outside your country". I see that its driven historically by availability of meat recipes only and meat has played a central part in western cuisines. For me, I can easily glide into full Steak and Pork chops chowing mode from pure vegan recipes for a full month without skipping a beat just because I have exposure to a larger set of cuisines and recipes. or it may just be an Asian thing.

Re: America’s First Meat-Free Fast-Food Restaurant Is Getting Ready to Expand

#15

Post by kantspel » Sat, Sep 02, 2017, 2:37 PM UTC

solarengineer wrote: post #12

kantspel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because I'm getting downvoted, I'll add proof. because hn doesn't do markdown, I can't add the links, but if you search for them you will find the sources on google, ddg whatever. All the major dietetics and health organizations in the world agree that vegan and vegetarian diets are just as healthy as omnivorous diets. Here are links to what some of them have to say on the subject: Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics…

I have been having veggies and fruits and have cut out sugar (especially white sugar) since Jan 2015. After getting more strict about this diet as well as my body weight exercise since May 16 this year, I have been losing between 50 gms to 100 gms of body fat per day. I check on a digital weighing scale that reports weight in kilos and pounds, BMI, body fat %, muscle %, water % and bone density. About B12: It is prod…

re: b12, good point, you should take a b12 supplement if you are eating vegan. It's a good thing they are cheap, easy to take and effective! and most people are low in b12, so even if you are a meat-eater, it's good to take a supplement as well

Re: America’s First Meat-Free Fast-Food Restaurant Is Getting Ready to Expand

#16

Post by kantspel » Sat, Sep 02, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #8

forkLding wrote: post #4

Recently been struggling with not the guilt that I'm killing and eating animals but rather the fact that in factory farms, we are encouraging the rapid raping of animals, forcing them to have children and then rapidly killing off their children, and repeating this process. All while restricting the space that they get to live in. We always want a humane way to end an animal or pest's life but I'm not too sure a facto…

…n factory farms, we are encouraging the rapid raping of animals, forcing them to have children and then rapidly killing off their children, and repeating this process. All while restricting the space that they get to live in. Have you considered that it might be feasible to eat better meat that doesn’t have these attributes? High-quality, free-range, organic meat is quite widely available - if it’s from a local farm…

if you are interested in the vegan perspective of why we think that even "humane meat" is wrong, I'd strongly encourage you to read this paper

http://philosophy.rutgers.edu/joomlatools-files/docman-files...

It really opened my eyes when I read it. :)

Re: America’s First Meat-Free Fast-Food Restaurant Is Getting Ready to Expand

#17

Post by forkLding » Sat, Sep 02, 2017, 8:41 PM UTC

rasz wrote: post #13

forkLding wrote: post #4

Recently been struggling with not the guilt that I'm killing and eating animals but rather the fact that in factory farms, we are encouraging the rapid raping of animals, forcing them to have children and then rapidly killing off their children, and repeating this process. All while restricting the space that they get to live in. We always want a humane way to end an animal or pest's life but I'm not too sure a facto…

Making all your friends watch Okja (2017) is a surprisingly effective way of influencing their opinion on the subject.

Yep, inspired in part by watching Okja, tried being vegetarian before watching that movie and now more or less steeled my will.