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India demonetisation fails to purge black money

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Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#11

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

GDP is down from 7.2 to 5.7.

Those roadside merchants will never pay tax as they don't make enough.

Internet connectivity/density is a joke in this country.

Everyone is using cash again and you have to still pay bribes.

Its time we tell the Emperor; The Emperor has no clothes!

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#12

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

I'm not sure. Historically, Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means (corruption, buying votes etc). Saying "yes but this government is different" also doesn't hold water when you look at the massive farm loan waivers that were just granted, and more waivers are on their way. How do you think the waivers were funded? Through our hard-earned tax money. Who do you think the debtors will now vote for in the next election cycle? The current ruling political party ofcourse.

Finally, there are a lot of disadvantages for being on a completely centralized digital payment platform from an individual liberty point of view. Imagine that a significant portion of your net worth is just a number stored in a "secure database" which falls under the jurisdiction of some government. Now image that you vocally disagree with the government's policies enough for the government to start taking notice. It becomes very very easy for the government to shut you up - all they have to do is strongarm the bank to freeze that number. Its not as hypothetical as it sounds as the Indian government has done this before.

A large portion of black money was deemed to be held up by the bureaucracy - bribes paid by private individuals and corporations to government employees and politicians. Had demonetization been done along with a hiring freeze (and subsequent trimming down) of the bureaucracy, I'd have been more certain that the motives behind demonetization were to root out corruption. However, the bureaucracy is now larger and more powerful than ever under this government. Thus, the incentives to seek bribes still exits because of this power imbalance between the powerful bureaucrats and relatively week individuals.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#13

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

Road-side merchants live hand-to-mouth and would anyways not contribute to tax because their incomes are so low.

Every study out there suggests that demonetisation was a big blunder, causing a very severe blow to the Indian economy, including the death of 150+ civilians.

The real motive for demonetisation was to legitimize the black money of the ruling party BJP and eliminate black money of opposition parties.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#14

I would not be surprised if one of the unstated goals was the removal of counterfeit high denomination notes from circulation. High denomination notes are the most attractive to counterfeit and such counterfeiting is often done by state level actors with budgets sufficient to produce high quality notes. The actual number of notes taken out of circulation is 1% of legitimate notes plus the number of counterfeit notes…

It was actually one of the stated secondary goals, with an appeal involving such currency being used by terrorists. However

1. While a higher than usual fake currency was detected the total fake currency detected was roughly 1 in 100,000. So there wasn't a fake note problem in general circulation. 2. The new notes launched do NOT have any additional security features, and hence while there will be a latency in getting the fakes right, it will continue to be a problem(albeit a small one).

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#15
EU is about to make their 500 EUR illegal http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36208146 in a sense. If you're a drug dealer or a politician (no need to add the corrupt label in certain countries) I can help you with a few of them ;)

Yeah, making your cash illegal--it is unless you're willing to explain in year 2032 how you ended up with a 50 gallon drum full of 500 euro notes--will help. But in many countries where the government is corrupt and cannot provide the basic needs, IMO, they need to let the people try to make a living. Social contract: we cannot give you much, but we will not impede you as you try to feed your kids.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#16

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

> However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments.

The evidence is that it had a strong negative effect. Also, anecdotally, the roadside merchants who used to accept PayTM for the duration while currency supply was squeezed, have now gone back to cash[1]

However PayTM's CEO is now buying a house in the poshest part of New Delhi, so I'm sure it wasn't all bad for him.

[1] http://www.pymnts.com/cash/2017/cash-usage-india-post-demone... ... "March data from RBI poured cold water on proponents of digital payment. The volume of overall digital transactions, which had increased by 42 percent from 672 million in November to 958 million in December 2016, declined by 20 percent to 763 million in February 2017."

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#17
For people who can't access the link: https://archive.fo/ynouY

I am confused with the article though. What would have been a successful result? That the all canceled currencies wouldn't have been exchanged or deposited?

I am reading this link: http://www.financialexpress.com/economy/all-rs-500-rs-1000-b...

The wording is confusing at best: " nearly 99% of the high-denomination currency notes of Rs 1,000 and Rs 500 that had been withdrawn on November 9, 2016"

My comprehension says all currencies withdrawn on the date - Nov 9, 2016, when demonetization was started has been returned.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#18

For people who can't access the link: https://archive.fo/ynouY I am confused with the article though. What would have been a successful result? That the all canceled currencies wouldn't have been exchanged or deposited? I am reading this link: http://www.financialexpress.com/economy/all-rs-500-rs-1000-b... The wording is confusing at best: " nearly 99% of the high-denomination currency notes of Rs 1,000 and Rs 500 th…

"I am confused with the article though. What would have been a successful result? That the all canceled currencies wouldn't have been exchanged or deposited?"

Yes - exactly - the assumption earlier was that a significant amount of money stored with the denominations that were de-monetised was "black"/unaccounted money. And this would not be deposited into banks due to fear of being scrutinized. If this had happened on a large scale and if the money had not been deposited - the liability of the exchequer would have reduced.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#19

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

> However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. The evidence is that it had a strong negative effect. Also, anecdotally, the roadside merchants who used to accept PayTM for the duration while currency supply was squeezed, have now gone back to cash[1] However PayTM's CEO is now buying a ho…

And he preordered a Tesla too. While that's not the concern. Calling out 'Roadside merchants accepting Paytm' as a Positive impact on economy is more of anecdotal than data driven. This nevertheless must have increased Paytm's market penetration and cash flow but a lot of road side vendors just had to sit in their homes for days due to unavailability of cash which is their primary mode of purchasing and their customers too.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#20
>Arun Jaitley, finance minister, on Thursday defended the demonetisation at a conference in New Delhi. He admitted that black money had come back into the banking system, but said that tax officials were combing through people’s accounts to identify and tax it. >He said: “The fact that money has got into the banking system does not mean that it is all now legitimate . . . The money got identified with the owner whom henceforth had been fixed with the liability of explaining that money and facing taxation on it.

This is the important part, money coming back to the system doesn't mean people can get away with it. An elaborate exercise is going on and I read multiple stories where the tax dept is sending notices to people with dubious deposits.

Also, This is always going to be a polarised debate. Digital payments certainly went up, people started using bank accounts. Yes, it's not significant, but change is really slow

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