Where can people who live in California sign the ballot proposal?
There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
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Re: There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
#12It's nice to see the unraveling of the drug war Nixon gave us in 1970 (and really earlier). It only took, what? 45 years? I dare say it's the bloodiest war we've ever fought.
How many people do you wager bled any amount over the half century in this 'war'? It is my understanding that a lot of people (rightfully) faced criminal penalties, and even that number pales in comparison to the victims of actual violence in real wars.
I don't have an answer for you but I do know that if there is one it needs to include:
- Murders due to the existence of a black market (people don't tend to get killed in such high volumes in an open market)
- Deaths due to enforcement of the laws. Both "criminals" and law enforcement.
- Deaths due to people failing to seek medical help because they don't want to go to jail
- Deaths in prison of people who are only there because of prohibition
- Suicides due to the consequences of prohibition
- May or may not count people whose lives were generally ruined because they are felons now and the trickle down punishment of those people's families as well.
I have no doubt that number will pail in comparison to a "real" war. But that doesn't mean those lives are not worth saving.
It is a bad precedence to say that because one thing (real war) is worse than another (drug war) that we shouldn't try to end both.
Re: There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
#13Earlier quoted context omitted.
For the prohibition, conservatively the homicide rate dropped 5-13%. if about 15k people in the US are murdered every year. Ending drug prohibition would save lets say 10% of those murdered? or 1,500 people. thats about half the amount killed on 9/11. This isn't counting all the deaths south of the border or all of the violence. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/opinion/sunday/the-not...
This is a rather lazy analysis. Would you like to consider any more than a single act of terrorism on the other side of your accounting? 'All of the death [or violence] south of the border' is also rather imprecise and self-generous.
Your comments are breaking the HN guidelines by crossing into incivility. Would you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow them when commenting here?
Re: There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
How many people do you wager bled any amount over the half century in this 'war'? It is my understanding that a lot of people (rightfully) faced criminal penalties, and even that number pales in comparison to the victims of actual violence in real wars.
I don't have an answer for you but I do know that if there is one it needs to include: - Murders due to the existence of a black market (people don't tend to get killed in such high volumes in an open market) - Deaths due to enforcement of the laws. Both "criminals" and law enforcement. - Deaths due to people failing to seek medical help because they don't want to go to jail - Deaths in prison of people who are only…
The OP chose to talk about bloodshed. We are now characterizing how bloody the 'war on drugs' has been. We are not characterizing how bad it might be in any other sense. This is a focused argument intended to examine something precisely. I asked about bloodshed in response to a claim about bloodshed. I don't want to hear about 'trickle down punishment' in response. Do you understand how inadequate that is?
Re: There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
#15It's nice to see the unraveling of the drug war Nixon gave us in 1970 (and really earlier). It only took, what? 45 years? I dare say it's the bloodiest war we've ever fought.
How many people do you wager bled any amount over the half century in this 'war'? It is my understanding that a lot of people (rightfully) faced criminal penalties, and even that number pales in comparison to the victims of actual violence in real wars.
Imagine if I actually linked to cartel machete execution videos right here on HN just to give you some real examples.
Re: There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
#16More precisely, there's a proposal to have a ballot initiative for this in 2018. That's a long way from it actually becoming law.
Right, this is more or less in the 'announcement of an announcement' bucket, the gold standard of baity unsubstantiveness.
We've edited the title above to be more accurate.
Re: There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
#17For what it's worth, they do grow along the West Coast (and other places) naturally. Without people doing anything.
At what point do they become illegal? When you pick them? When you dry them? When they start budding out of the ground?
You can't see me laughing, but it's pretty absurd. Yeah, I know, you CAN grow cannabis. But you have to TRY to stop mushrooms from growing.
Re: There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't have an answer for you but I do know that if there is one it needs to include: - Murders due to the existence of a black market (people don't tend to get killed in such high volumes in an open market) - Deaths due to enforcement of the laws. Both "criminals" and law enforcement. - Deaths due to people failing to seek medical help because they don't want to go to jail - Deaths in prison of people who are only…
The OP chose to talk about bloodshed. We are now characterizing how bloody the 'war on drugs' has been. We are not characterizing how bad it might be in any other sense. This is a focused argument intended to examine something precisely. I asked about bloodshed in response to a claim about bloodshed. I don't want to hear about 'trickle down punishment' in response. Do you understand how inadequate that is?
Nobody wants to engage in debates over arbitrarily specific terms just to satisfy one person's pedantic beef.
Also, you don't own the thread; people can respond as they please and the votes and mods will sort it out.
Re: There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't have an answer for you but I do know that if there is one it needs to include: - Murders due to the existence of a black market (people don't tend to get killed in such high volumes in an open market) - Deaths due to enforcement of the laws. Both "criminals" and law enforcement. - Deaths due to people failing to seek medical help because they don't want to go to jail - Deaths in prison of people who are only…
The OP chose to talk about bloodshed. We are now characterizing how bloody the 'war on drugs' has been. We are not characterizing how bad it might be in any other sense. This is a focused argument intended to examine something precisely. I asked about bloodshed in response to a claim about bloodshed. I don't want to hear about 'trickle down punishment' in response. Do you understand how inadequate that is?
By bloodshed, I mean death or casualties, not limited to only when blood pours out. When people talk about bloody wars, they also cite casualties which includes wounded. It's obviously incalculable, but consider these:
1. US gang violence. (8,900 deaths in 2010, higher in 80s,90s)
2. Drug war related deaths in Mexico 1990-2010 (220,000 deaths)
3. Drug war related deaths in Columbia, 1990-2010 (450,000 deaths)
4. Killings by militarized police. (unknown)
5. Overdose deaths (65K in 2016 at peak, but a lot in 70s-90s)
https://colombiareports.com/the-price-of-colombias-drug-war/
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/05/upshot/opioid...
I would guess that overdose deaths primarily occur because the user doesn't know what dosage they are given, a result of the black market. I suspect there are some intentional suicide overdose deaths, but those would be low. The overdose deaths are just for one year as are the gang violence deaths. Gangs arm themselves with drug money.
The US had 720,000 deaths in our bloodiest war, the Civil War, 2/3rds of that was disease, which you may or may not consider bloodshed. Just Mexico and Columbia alone account for 670K deaths between 1990 and 2010. Add 7 years to the top end, and 20 years from 1970 to 1990 and that number is growing substantially.
I'm not sure if you would count the Philippines as directly related to US policies, but I think their death count is already at 12K for the year.
Anyway, these are some numbers that I threw together in about 10 minutes. It excludes a bunch of countries that were directly affected by US drug war policies. The numbers are quite high. Not WWII total deaths high, but certainly Civil War military deaths high (our bloodiest war).
Re: There might be a ballot measure to decriminalize psilocybin in Calfornia in 2018
#20It's nice to see the unraveling of the drug war Nixon gave us in 1970 (and really earlier). It only took, what? 45 years? I dare say it's the bloodiest war we've ever fought.
How many people do you wager bled any amount over the half century in this 'war'? It is my understanding that a lot of people (rightfully) faced criminal penalties, and even that number pales in comparison to the victims of actual violence in real wars.
>a lot of people (rightfully) faced criminal penalties
Because an arbitrary law envisioned by a paranoid man to silence his political opposition makes it rightful?
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richa...
I can see that you are a true believer. Please research the death tolls in Mexico and Columbia to try to convince yourself of our folly.