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The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

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Re: The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

#11

Post by Inconel »

zackmorris wrote: post #8

I have noticed posts on Facebook now, finally, asking people not to feed the trolls by responding to their messages. I think that social media companies have been irresponsible in their passing the buck on moderating conversations in the name of avoiding censorship. I am more concerned, however, that people my age and younger (gen x) never had civics in school. There used to be an assumption that the world is chaotic…

I agree, particularly with your point about thinking critically and treating others with dignity, but at the risk of sounding overly pessimistic, why are you hopeful that the broader tech community can help, or even wants to help, leapfrog all this ugliness? As a somewhat outsider looking in, most of what passes for the tech community from what I can observe seems primarily focused with tracking users so that these users can be targeted with advertising to "aid" them in future purchasing decisions. I'm not entirely sold on the idea that this is the community that's going to instill positive change.

Re: The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

#12

Post by grabcocque »

opportune wrote: post #10
grabcocque wrote: post #4

I mean this week seems to have seen a very public and significant pushback against alt reich/gamergate/neonazi/MAGA idiots. It's been one of the worst weeks to be a white supremacist or racist in the US for quite some time. So there are limits. Even Ted Cruz will eventually stand up and say: you know what, this is too fucking far. STOP. They key to moving the Overton window is to do it gradually. Charlottesville was…

You're seriously lumping gamergate into that? The one thing I can't stand, and think is unfair, is when a few bad apples ruin a decentralized movement for everyone. BLM had the exact same problem, idiots delegitimizing a movement fighting a very legitimate problem, and then those scattered incidents being collected to allow organized detractors to mischaracterize them. Now we're seeing that happen with the rightwing…

Don't want to tread old ground here, but since the gamergate clusterfuck, pretty much every single one of the gamergate "thought leaders" has turned out, to nobody's surprise, to be a nazi.

Anyway, the connections between Nazism and gamergate have been extensively detailed across the web.

But here's Stormfront endorsing the movement:

https://archive.is/YyKpX

Re: The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

#13

Post by signet »

opportune wrote: post #10
grabcocque wrote: post #4

I mean this week seems to have seen a very public and significant pushback against alt reich/gamergate/neonazi/MAGA idiots. It's been one of the worst weeks to be a white supremacist or racist in the US for quite some time. So there are limits. Even Ted Cruz will eventually stand up and say: you know what, this is too fucking far. STOP. They key to moving the Overton window is to do it gradually. Charlottesville was…

You're seriously lumping gamergate into that? The one thing I can't stand, and think is unfair, is when a few bad apples ruin a decentralized movement for everyone. BLM had the exact same problem, idiots delegitimizing a movement fighting a very legitimate problem, and then those scattered incidents being collected to allow organized detractors to mischaracterize them. Now we're seeing that happen with the rightwing…

Wow, I didn't know people were still talking about gamergate like it was a controversy worth caring about. And what does it have to do with legitimate conservative causes? You're as bad as the president. "Not all the white men carrying torches and chanting 'Jews will not replace us' are bad people"

Re: The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

#14

Post by opportune »

signet wrote: post #13
opportune wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're seriously lumping gamergate into that? The one thing I can't stand, and think is unfair, is when a few bad apples ruin a decentralized movement for everyone. BLM had the exact same problem, idiots delegitimizing a movement fighting a very legitimate problem, and then those scattered incidents being collected to allow organized detractors to mischaracterize them. Now we're seeing that happen with the rightwing…

Wow, I didn't know people were still talking about gamergate like it was a controversy worth caring about. And what does it have to do with legitimate conservative causes? You're as bad as the president. "Not all the white men carrying torches and chanting 'Jews will not replace us' are bad people"

Not really, just don't like backhanded character assassination.

Also, not all the people protesting were chanting "Jews will not replace us". Oddly, some of the white nationalists that helped organize the protest were Jewish. And I also personally know many conservative people in favor of the statues that aren't nazis either (and at least for some, it's because they personally are Jewish, so it would make no sense).

Calling all conservatives white nationalists is the equivalent of calling all BLM protesters black nationalists, or all counter protesters antifa. It's just easy namecalling and almost always ends up just being very heavily cherrypicked images and such used to construct a narrative.

Re: The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

#15

Post by signet »

opportune wrote: post #14
signet wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I didn't know people were still talking about gamergate like it was a controversy worth caring about. And what does it have to do with legitimate conservative causes? You're as bad as the president. "Not all the white men carrying torches and chanting 'Jews will not replace us' are bad people"

Not really, just don't like backhanded character assassination. Also, not all the people protesting were chanting "Jews will not replace us". Oddly, some of the white nationalists that helped organize the protest were Jewish. And I also personally know many conservative people in favor of the statues that aren't nazis either (and at least for some, it's because they personally are Jewish, so it would make no sense).…

I completely agree with the statement 'not all conservatives are Nazis.' Just the people who show up at white nationalist rallies and decide to go with the mob. Why can't conservationism be about cutting taxes again? The repubs have a serious image problem turning a blind eye to this insane fringe and if they want to fix it they need to stomp it out and focus on economics or something less divisive.

Re: The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

#16

Post by [deleted] »

opportune wrote: post #10
grabcocque wrote: post #4

I mean this week seems to have seen a very public and significant pushback against alt reich/gamergate/neonazi/MAGA idiots. It's been one of the worst weeks to be a white supremacist or racist in the US for quite some time. So there are limits. Even Ted Cruz will eventually stand up and say: you know what, this is too fucking far. STOP. They key to moving the Overton window is to do it gradually. Charlottesville was…

You're seriously lumping gamergate into that? The one thing I can't stand, and think is unfair, is when a few bad apples ruin a decentralized movement for everyone. BLM had the exact same problem, idiots delegitimizing a movement fighting a very legitimate problem, and then those scattered incidents being collected to allow organized detractors to mischaracterize them. Now we're seeing that happen with the rightwing…

[deleted]

Re: The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

#18

Post by zackmorris »

Inconel wrote: post #11
zackmorris wrote: post #8

I have noticed posts on Facebook now, finally, asking people not to feed the trolls by responding to their messages. I think that social media companies have been irresponsible in their passing the buck on moderating conversations in the name of avoiding censorship. I am more concerned, however, that people my age and younger (gen x) never had civics in school. There used to be an assumption that the world is chaotic…

I agree, particularly with your point about thinking critically and treating others with dignity, but at the risk of sounding overly pessimistic, why are you hopeful that the broader tech community can help, or even wants to help, leapfrog all this ugliness? As a somewhat outsider looking in, most of what passes for the tech community from what I can observe seems primarily focused with tracking users so that these u…

You know, maybe this is one of those junctures where if it can't help, then I question what it is we're all working towards. I thought when the internet came out that free access to all the world's information would enlighten people. Unfortunately, it seems to have had the opposite effect for a great many of us. There is so much ignorance in the face of such vast knowledge.

It might be time for us to ask ourselves if we really want our best and brightest to be chasing ad dollars anymore. Is this really the future we were envisioning in the 80s and 90s? It feels like so much rat racing and scrambling for a piece of the pie and playing zero-sum games. That loss of meaning could be part of what's at the heart of the discontent at large. Why can't we be inventing things that free people from labor and give people back a basic standard of living, the loss of which is what's driving so much of these feelings of disenfranchisement in the first place?

Sorry I don't have much of an answer, I'm kind of at a loss too.

Re: The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

#19

Post by alexandercrohde »

I reject the premise. The internet seems to have proven that medium shapes dialogue.

Wikipedia = encyclopedia quality product using only input from internet people

Reddit = Consistently entertaining jokes on news using only input from internet people

HN = A readable online discussion with points worth considering using only input from internet people

Re: The Trance of Dysfunction: Why Trolls Have Come to Dominate Discourse

#20

Post by Analemma_ »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #19

I reject the premise. The internet seems to have proven that medium shapes dialogue. Wikipedia = encyclopedia quality product using only input from internet people Reddit = Consistently entertaining jokes on news using only input from internet people HN = A readable online discussion with points worth considering using only input from internet people

That's an pretry glass-half-full perspective. I would counter with this:

Wikipedia = stable, but mostly because a cabal of senior editors is firmly in charge. For all practical purposes, "anyone" can't edit Wikipedia anymore; try it, your edits will be reverted by somebody citing WP:WTFBBQ. It keeps trolling down, but at the cost of enforcing the party line.

Reddit = when it isn't trolls and miscreants, it's the same unfunny jokes upvoted ad nauseum

HN = good, but mostly because we're a self-selecting subset of the general population and there are legitimate grounds for banning any "off-topic" speech. This approach doesn't scale to the wider world.

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