Google’s Testament to Political Correctness • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#11

Post by davemp » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:55 AM UTC

taysic wrote: post #8

According to the article some of the things that will "and will get you socially lambasted" "Any statement that perpetuates female stereotypes is sexist, even an innocuous joke (or even a misconstrued joke in someone else’s private conversation)" "Prostitution is sexist against women" etc Um wtf? No these are not appropriate in a work environment. If you want to have a place with meaningful controversial discussion t…

You have a very valid point, but it's not exactly the issue at hand.

- The memo was posted in an opt-in group for these types of discussions.

- The issue is very lopsided. I have personally never heard of someone being fired over saying much more offensive statements in the other direction (ie: men are dense / white people ruin everthing / etc). I would have no problem with a zero tolerance policy as long as it were evenly enforced.

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#12

Post by KhanMahGretsch » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:11 AM UTC

taysic wrote: post #8

According to the article some of the things that will "and will get you socially lambasted" "Any statement that perpetuates female stereotypes is sexist, even an innocuous joke (or even a misconstrued joke in someone else’s private conversation)" "Prostitution is sexist against women" etc Um wtf? No these are not appropriate in a work environment. If you want to have a place with meaningful controversial discussion t…

One thing I enjoy about working in tech is having the opportunity to discuss things other than work during breaks.

We often spend more waking hours with our colleagues than our friends and family, forming strong bonds and friendships.

I've been lucky enough to work with intelligent people originating from many parts of the world, and have enjoyed stimulating discussions that include geo-political and social issues.

While there are a myriad of reasons why one could feel bad about facing a day in the office, I personally find sexism and harassment to be particularly heinous, and indicates weakness of character more than a lack of ability.

Something I worry about is the possibility of a work environment where the free discussion and conversation I mentioned above is inhibited. Especially one in which "acceptable" conversation is not politically neutral, but instead favouring progressive viewpoints exclusively.

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#13

Post by taysic » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:24 AM UTC

davemp wrote: post #11

taysic wrote: post #8

According to the article some of the things that will "and will get you socially lambasted" "Any statement that perpetuates female stereotypes is sexist, even an innocuous joke (or even a misconstrued joke in someone else’s private conversation)" "Prostitution is sexist against women" etc Um wtf? No these are not appropriate in a work environment. If you want to have a place with meaningful controversial discussion t…

You have a very valid point, but it's not exactly the issue at hand. - The memo was posted in an opt-in group for these types of discussions. - The issue is very lopsided. I have personally never heard of someone being fired over saying much more offensive statements in the other direction (ie: men are dense / white people ruin everthing / etc). I would have no problem with a zero tolerance policy as long as it were…

Google must be a pretty interesting place to work in with an opt in group for these types of discussions. I guess that could be good but it seems like their informality might be coming to bite them.

Maybe I've just been exceptionally good at picking professional places to work at but I've never heard comments like the ones you've mentioned. Why not go to HR? Those are pretty strong statements.

My understanding is our harassment laws are pretty strong. During a sexual harassment compliance training at one of my companies, I learned that the fastest growing sexual harassment cases are men suing men. (If I remember it correctly) for things like feeling pressured to have acted more manly. And they win. The laws in this country are incredible and add enormously to the productivity we have in our companies.

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#14

Post by taysic » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:35 AM UTC

KhanMahGretsch wrote: post #12

taysic wrote: post #8

According to the article some of the things that will "and will get you socially lambasted" "Any statement that perpetuates female stereotypes is sexist, even an innocuous joke (or even a misconstrued joke in someone else’s private conversation)" "Prostitution is sexist against women" etc Um wtf? No these are not appropriate in a work environment. If you want to have a place with meaningful controversial discussion t…

One thing I enjoy about working in tech is having the opportunity to discuss things other than work during breaks. We often spend more waking hours with our colleagues than our friends and family, forming strong bonds and friendships. I've been lucky enough to work with intelligent people originating from many parts of the world, and have enjoyed stimulating discussions that include geo-political and social issues. W…

I hear you. That sounds very nice, but a work environment can simply never be the same as hanging out with a friend over lunch. There needs to be some way to discourage harassment and promote a positive, friendly work environment that values people for their skill set rather than other given irrelevant attributes.

Free discussion is just not appropriate at a work place - the line must be drawn somewhere and usually that means veering towards acting professional. There is ample opportunity to be yourself fully outside of this context.

Nothing has been more positive to me as a woman in tech than working in environments with professionalism. I got to focus on what I love to do, what I am best at. It works in the interest of companies too.

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#15

Post by jedmeyers » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 1:43 AM UTC

prepend wrote: post #6

I don't think it's safe to comment on these types of articles online. These comments are stored and indexed forever and whatever we say could be used against us at some point in the future. You may think you are reasonably debating or discussing something, but you have to consider that someone in the next 50 years may review your post history and use it against you. Theoretically, we would need to make throwaway acco…

> These comments are stored and indexed forever and whatever we say could be used against us at some point in the future.

https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/public-data/hacker-news

This dataset contains all stories and comments from Hacker News from its launch in 2006. Each story contains a story ID, the author that made the post, when it was written, and the number of points the story received.

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#16

Post by RealityNow » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:06 AM UTC

prepend wrote: post #6

I don't think it's safe to comment on these types of articles online. These comments are stored and indexed forever and whatever we say could be used against us at some point in the future. You may think you are reasonably debating or discussing something, but you have to consider that someone in the next 50 years may review your post history and use it against you. Theoretically, we would need to make throwaway acco…

That's essentially the problem that the article is trying to bring attention to - our culture of intellectual hostility.

The only way this will ever change is if people stop caving in to political correctness.

I realize it's a prisoner's dilemma in that individually it's in nobody's best interest to speak out, but that's an incredibly selfish mindset. We need to start valuing integrity and doing the right thing. It was never in any slaveholder's best interest to speak out against slavery, or in any white person's best interest to speak out against racism in a Southern community in the early 1900s after a lynching - but speaking out was the right thing to do and should be commended.

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#17

Post by RealityNow » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:14 AM UTC

taysic wrote: post #8

According to the article some of the things that will "and will get you socially lambasted" "Any statement that perpetuates female stereotypes is sexist, even an innocuous joke (or even a misconstrued joke in someone else’s private conversation)" "Prostitution is sexist against women" etc Um wtf? No these are not appropriate in a work environment. If you want to have a place with meaningful controversial discussion t…

That was simply a list of topics that PC culture has deemed indisputable and heresy to even question. The topic of whether or not they're appropriate in a work environment is a whole different discussion.

The Google memo was pertaining to their own company's diversity policy, and hence should be fair game for discussion. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, then the Obama quote at the bottom of the article summarizes my thoughts.

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#18

Post by RealityNow » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:16 AM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #3

Of all the things the author mentions as being propped up by political correctness, this: > Capitalism is the best economic system sticks out like a sore thumb. I thought progressivism was more of a market socialism type affair? A disproportionate number of diversity quota advocates are open socialists or communists.

Open communists? Interesting, I've never met any of those. Perhaps Silicon Valley and California are a lot different in that regards to NYC, where declaring yourself a communist is sacrilege.

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#19

Post by taysic » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:36 AM UTC

RealityNow wrote: post #17

taysic wrote: post #8

According to the article some of the things that will "and will get you socially lambasted" "Any statement that perpetuates female stereotypes is sexist, even an innocuous joke (or even a misconstrued joke in someone else’s private conversation)" "Prostitution is sexist against women" etc Um wtf? No these are not appropriate in a work environment. If you want to have a place with meaningful controversial discussion t…

That was simply a list of topics that PC culture has deemed indisputable and heresy to even question. The topic of whether or not they're appropriate in a work environment is a whole different discussion. The Google memo was pertaining to their own company's diversity policy, and hence should be fair game for discussion. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, then the Obama quote at the bottom of the article summarize…

They appear completely related to what is heresy to discuss at Google. The section starts off with

"Some takeaways from this whole fiasco"

"Here are some of those politically correct assertions that take on almost religious-like qualities..."

And thus appear to be completely linked to the topic of the Google "fiasco". Very confusing way to present the article if they are not relevant.

College is a very different place than a workplace. I am not required to interact with anyone on my college campus. Additionally, a workplace works best without the friction of being a place for the discussion of politics or controversial topics. Let alone "innocuous" jokes.

The author is upset that he is not greeted with hugs and applause for his memo. So what?

I only read the first part - and I'm no expert on these topics but I haven't experienced any exceptionalism within this profession as a woman. To the contrary, my code is out there in the open ready for scrutiny all the time. I truly believe this is a meritocratic profession. My understanding is that companies aim to hire equally qualified workers from more backgrounds of diversity. Even better, they have an economic incentive to do so.

Many of the time the people writing these things are looking for something to complain about. I haven't worked at Google but I haven't experienced this to be imbalanced in the way it's being portrayed.

I guess you can say the memo was put out there, and a discussion was had.

Re: Google’s Testament to Political Correctness

#20

Post by RealityNow » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:45 AM UTC

taysic wrote: post #19

RealityNow wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was simply a list of topics that PC culture has deemed indisputable and heresy to even question. The topic of whether or not they're appropriate in a work environment is a whole different discussion. The Google memo was pertaining to their own company's diversity policy, and hence should be fair game for discussion. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, then the Obama quote at the bottom of the article summarize…

They appear completely related to what is heresy to discuss at Google. The section starts off with "Some takeaways from this whole fiasco" "Here are some of those politically correct assertions that take on almost religious-like qualities..." And thus appear to be completely linked to the topic of the Google "fiasco". Very confusing way to present the article if they are not relevant. College is a very different plac…

Apologies if the presentation was unclear, will see if I can make that clearer.

> Additionally, a workplace works best without the friction of being a place for the discussion of politics or controversial topics. Let alone "innocuous" jokes.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I prefer workplaces, or any environment for that matter, where we all respect each other enough to be open to the discussion of any topic and not easily offended over stupid meaningless jokes. That does not mean that one has to share their political beliefs or be pestered to engage in controversial debate - but a culture where everyone has to watch out for every little thing they say because any non-PC mark could be misconstrued and used as grounds for firing simply because someone deemed it offensive is intellectually hostile, unhealthy, and not the type of environment I want to be in.

> The author is upset that he is not greeted with hugs and applause for his memo. So what?

That's not why the author is upset. The author got fired.