Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#11

Post by bradly » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:29 PM UTC

vinhboy wrote: post #5

This is a classic example of why we shouldn't feed the trolls. I am not sure why this letter is getting so much publicity. This view point can be had any day on reddit. Even in places like /r/technology you'll find plenty of people throwing out these ideas. I find it rather boring and cliche.

You may find it boring, but there are many people who's daily lives are affected by this type of behavior. Having it displayed so broadly at a company viewed as progressive as Google validates what marginalized people in these groups have been saying for years but keeps getting dismissed.

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#12

Post by ceejayoz » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:30 PM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #4

The irony here is the fallout from this memo is exactly what the author was trying to fight against. Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Whether or not the author is "right" is entirely up for debate, but I believe they should be able to at least question the current situation and get logical feedback as to why they…

> Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse.

Likely because it's the same old pseudoscientific Gish Gallop of claims that've been addressed a thousand times before.

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#13

Post by MBCook » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:32 PM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #4

The irony here is the fallout from this memo is exactly what the author was trying to fight against. Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Whether or not the author is "right" is entirely up for debate, but I believe they should be able to at least question the current situation and get logical feedback as to why they…

The person essentially gave ANY woman he works with a gender descrimination suit slam-dunk.

Are you a woman? Does he review your code poorly? Did you possibly lose a promotion/bonus because of review scores? You've got a great case.

Is he your manager? WOW do you have a great case.

Your career is based on peer reviews and he is one of your reviewers? Google is in trouble.

I don't think it IS up for debate but no matter what what he did is a NIGHTMARE for Google internally, let alone the PR and recruiting disasters it has become.

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#14

Post by xenity7 » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:32 PM UTC

I would encourage everyone here to actually go ahead and read the manifesto/letter. I did and was surprised by its tone, given the type of headline this situation is attracting.

I think the author makes some very calm and reasoned points and is attempting to start a discussion where he is open to being wrong.

I do NOT agree with all of the points he makes, but I think he is expressing his views in what is largely a respectful manner that is not, for the most part, racist or sexist in the way you might expect.

If he's wrong, and he IS wrong on some points, the proper reaction is to engage on these points because other people are thinking them too.

Encouraging diversity and inclusion means convincing and educating people at the margin like this guy, not virtue signaling and slamming them for not toeing the line.

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#15

Post by MBCook » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

aaronhoffman wrote: post #7

naturalgradient wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you mean? Aside from being the literal headline of the NPR article and thus being right for HN, what would you suggest?

My comment was WRT the NPR headline itself.

What would you suggest? From what I've seen that seems like a pretty apt description.

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#16

Post by mnglkhn2 » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #12

gavanwoolery wrote: post #4

The irony here is the fallout from this memo is exactly what the author was trying to fight against. Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Whether or not the author is "right" is entirely up for debate, but I believe they should be able to at least question the current situation and get logical feedback as to why they…

> Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Likely because it's the same old pseudoscientific Gish Gallop of claims that've been addressed a thousand times before. https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...

just to point out that the comments on the piece you're pointing too are also worth a read...

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#17

Post by aidenn0 » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

aaronhoffman wrote: post #2

"...After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts" doesn't seem to be an impartial headline to me.

The memo did slam the diversity efforts at Google. If the headline had been something like "Anti-diversity memo" you might be able to claim a lack of impartiality, but I think even the author of the memo would agree that it specifically called out some of the diversity efforts at Google.

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#18

Post by minwcnt5 » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:40 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #9

The uproar and its virality within Google first are so weird. From what I skimmed, that post was ultra mild and the author went out of his way to qualify everything.

It may appear that way on the surface, but that's because it follows a typical pseudo-scientific formula of citing some a few specific results as evidence to give the argument an air of credibility, and then drawing broad and profound conclusions that are at best vaguely related to the evidence. He basically went from "there are biological differences between men and women that affect their preferences" (okay, I can maybe buy that) straight to "women may not be as good a fit as men for these roles" and "Google should consider ending all of its diversity efforts". The evidence he cited (some of which is research that's been debunked) doesn't even come CLOSE to justifying his conclusions.

The reason there's such an uproar within Google is that the place is full of people with extensive training in mathematics and logic, who can easily spot when you submit a "proof" that is missing about 10,000 steps between the low level lemmas and the top level claims. Combine this with the fact that the claims are questioning the right of 1/3 of the company to exist there, and of course the reaction is going to be incredibly visceral. I honestly don't know how anyone could read more than a paragraph of that document without their bullshit detector exploding.

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#19

Post by pavlov » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #9

The uproar and its virality within Google first are so weird. From what I skimmed, that post was ultra mild and the author went out of his way to qualify everything.

I suspect the pretend-polite tone makes it even worse. Women are tired of hearing these prejudices, but they're often abrupt, poorly spelled missives that are easy to ignore.

When somebody wraps it into a careful sandwich of "But have you considered testosterone? Just asking..." for 10 pages long, it feels like the author is seriously working hard to undermine your professional status, not just spouting on a drunk night.

Re: Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

#20

Post by rpearl » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #4

The irony here is the fallout from this memo is exactly what the author was trying to fight against. Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Whether or not the author is "right" is entirely up for debate, but I believe they should be able to at least question the current situation and get logical feedback as to why they…

The author's claims are not factual. The "biological" bases he asserts as fact are debunked, and not even recently. You say that we should engage with him, but there's nothing of substance there to engage with.

So then, we shouldn't tolerate his breach of the "peace treaty" of tolerance. He stepped over a line, and should be socially stigmatized for it. https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1...