We hear it over and over again and I understand the reluctance to address it (it can be scary to step out from the crowd) but when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? Until an organization has the desire and courage to step out from the crowd and fund ideas/startups, without regard to age but, on the strength of the idea and the team, then this issue will forever be in the…
>when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? This is not the sort of diversity they're interested in.
Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
11–20 of 26 posts
Re: Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
I suppose we'll just need more government regulation (mandatory reporting of candidate interviews, hiring criteria, hiring decision justifications, etc).
I can't tell if you're being serious, but will the costs to the taxpayer and possible unintended consequences and invariable corruption be worth it to add more layers of government to our slowly eroding free interactions? Since there are plenty of job markets outside of Silicon Valley, maybe it's good people are looking elsewhere. These markets could use the boost.
Additionally, it is important to remember that while looking in distant job markets/industries is a good and viable alternative to being jobless in SV, not every aging tech applicant has the ability to relocate. Some people cannot relocate because they have aging parents they must care for or they may be divorced and unable to relocate because they have a shared parenting agreement that requires court approval to relocate. Some people are in the SV job market without any other options other than to leave the field.
Re: Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
#13We hear it over and over again and I understand the reluctance to address it (it can be scary to step out from the crowd) but when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? Until an organization has the desire and courage to step out from the crowd and fund ideas/startups, without regard to age but, on the strength of the idea and the team, then this issue will forever be in the…
Nobody is ignoring it. It's just if you haven't moved up the tech/management/etc ladder by your late 30s/40s, there just isn't a place for you in silicon valley/tech startup scene.
I started at a startup when I was 20. All the devs were in their 20s. Our founder was 29. During milestone/release/go-live times, we'd work 20 hours a day and sleep at our desks and wash in the 1 toilet bathroom the entire week or two prior to get our job ( deliverable ) done. Now that I'm older, that's something I just physically can't do. I just don't have the energy or stamina for it. Also, family responsibilities means I can't do it.
The startup scene is such a raw, all-or-nothing, winner-take-all scene that it'll always be a young man's game.
Also, younger people are viewed as more innovative, more immersed in new tech and quicker to learn. As much as experienced is touted, it's not worth much in the startup scene. Certainly it helps if you are the founder/team lead, but for the regular devs, it just makes sense to bring in the cheaper, hungrier, "quicker", eager college grads or young devs.
Put yourself in their position. Imagine you just founded a startup. Would you really be willing to hire overpaid 40 year olds who have to be home by 5 or 6 PM? Also, would you as a 40 year old be comfortable in a dev team with a bunch of 20 year olds?
This is why as devs grow older, they transition to more established corporations. It's why VCs love to fund younger founders. That's where the innovation/energy/risk-appetite is. 40 year olds have kids college funds to think of, their retirement funds, healthcare, etc to worry about. And as you grow older you get more conservative and set in your ways.
Also, as younger people/devs continue to create winners like google, facebook, snapchat, youtube, reddit, microsoft, etc, that's where the money will go.
Silicon Vally and the VC community isn't about charity or societal good, it's about making money.
Re: Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
#14Re: Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
#15Re: Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
#16We hear it over and over again and I understand the reluctance to address it (it can be scary to step out from the crowd) but when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? Until an organization has the desire and courage to step out from the crowd and fund ideas/startups, without regard to age but, on the strength of the idea and the team, then this issue will forever be in the…
> If the answer is they would, why is everyone ignoring this issue? Nobody is ignoring it. It's just if you haven't moved up the tech/management/etc ladder by your late 30s/40s, there just isn't a place for you in silicon valley/tech startup scene. I started at a startup when I was 20. All the devs were in their 20s. Our founder was 29. During milestone/release/go-live times, we'd work 20 hours a day and sleep at our…
VCs love younger founders because their easier to manipulate and control. Becuase they'll cheerfully risk everything and give most the gains away to the VCs.
It is not an attitude we should be encouraging or suggesting is a status quo allowed to exist. In part because it's unethical, but also in part because it encourages the proliferation of many small, disposable companies that only benefit investors by trying to implement the smallest delta in tech increase possible in the industry.
Re: Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
#17We hear it over and over again and I understand the reluctance to address it (it can be scary to step out from the crowd) but when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? Until an organization has the desire and courage to step out from the crowd and fund ideas/startups, without regard to age but, on the strength of the idea and the team, then this issue will forever be in the…
> If the answer is they would, why is everyone ignoring this issue? Nobody is ignoring it. It's just if you haven't moved up the tech/management/etc ladder by your late 30s/40s, there just isn't a place for you in silicon valley/tech startup scene. I started at a startup when I was 20. All the devs were in their 20s. Our founder was 29. During milestone/release/go-live times, we'd work 20 hours a day and sleep at our…
>if you haven't moved up in tech/management/etc ladder by your late 30s/40s, there just isn't a place for you in SV/tech startup scene>
Not all tech companies are founded by people from the tech industry. Noted futurist Joel Barker posited that transformational change in product and leadership comes more often from those outside the industry than within because those outside see the bigger picture than those who have been intricately involved. Your statement of "as much as experience is touted, it's not worth much in the startup scene" seems to imply that you at least on some level agree.
>You talk about your 20 hour days, not going home, doing what it takes to meet deliverable timelines and that this extended period could last for 2 weeks. And you state, "the startup scene is such a raw, all or nothing, winner-take all scene that it'll always be a young man's game.">.
I submit that it is the driven persons game. One of my cofounders and I obtained our doctorates a few years ago when we were late 30's and very early 40's. We both worked at minimum full-time (me on average 65 hrs a week) while getting all 58 hrs of coursework and our dissertation written and defended in 27 months start to finish. We averaged 4 hrs of sleep a night over these 27 months. We both had kids at home. Over the last 8 weeks leading up to defense we still worked our normal FT employment and completed revision and defending our individual dissertations while averaging 5-7 hours of sleep a week. We both successfully defended at our first attempt. I don't think it is a young man's game; it is the determined person's game. It is about determination, perseverance and belief in ourselves and supporting each other's success.
>"Younger people are seen as more innovative....". Henry Kaiser (63) of Kaiser Permanente; Ray Kroc (52) McDomald's; Dr. Thomas Frist(58) HCA; Bernard Marcus (49) Home Depot...to name a few would not agree. Innovation is about seeing a solution to a problem and then creating the solution people want. Founders are capable of finding those who compliment themselves and have skill sets that they lack to build their team. It isn't about being a top tier programmer, it is about being a passionate leader.
>Would you really be willing to hire overpaid 40 year olds who have to be home by 5 or 6 pm?>
All I can say to that is life in SV must really be different because I do not know a single person who has to be home by 5 or 6. I have always worked on average 60 hours + a week even when I had kids at home. Our technical leader is a successful tech entrepreneur who had a very successful exit and has no need to work but does so because despite his success he is creative and innovative by nature. We have supportive encouraging families. They are as committed to us as we are to them.
>VCs love to fund younger founders. That's where the innovation/energy/risk-appetite is.>
I think you are talking about a specific type of individual that is not always defined by age.
>And as you grow older you get more conservative and set in your ways. >
That may be true for you but that is not true for myself or my co-founders. Fortunately we are not dependent on SV to see our project funded as we can shoulder the risk. Yes it would be wonderful to have an opportunity to participate in YC (which by the way all three of us could commit to without any issues with spouses/or family difficulties), it is clear that we are not of the diversity that YC desires.
>SV and the VC community isn't about charity or societal good, it's about making money.>
You might want to let YC know that they aren't about charity because they do fund non-profits. We on the other hand are about societal good AND making money so that we can make positive changes in many lives and communities.
Thanks for your input as we are SV outsiders and are well aware that it is in our best interest to be familiar with the expectations and attitudes we will encounter when we launch in 2018.
Re: Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
#18Re: Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't tell if you're being serious, but will the costs to the taxpayer and possible unintended consequences and invariable corruption be worth it to add more layers of government to our slowly eroding free interactions? Since there are plenty of job markets outside of Silicon Valley, maybe it's good people are looking elsewhere. These markets could use the boost.
There would be no additional costs as the EEOC already exists. I guess I should have asked for clarification about the seriousness of the statement that you are responding to as I assumed the individual was being somewhat sarcastic. That aside, the fact remains such a governmental body already exists. I favor self-determination and self-regulation over governmental oversight. Additionally, it is important to remember…
Companies use secrecy and information asymmetry in order to take advantage of employees. I continue to find ways to rectify that.
Self-determination is a strawman.
Re: Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
There would be no additional costs as the EEOC already exists. I guess I should have asked for clarification about the seriousness of the statement that you are responding to as I assumed the individual was being somewhat sarcastic. That aside, the fact remains such a governmental body already exists. I favor self-determination and self-regulation over governmental oversight. Additionally, it is important to remember…
I'm entirely serious. Companies use secrecy and information asymmetry in order to take advantage of employees. I continue to find ways to rectify that. Self-determination is a strawman.
For a company that is committed to fairness and compliance w non-discrimination policies, self-determination sets the standards by which compliance w company guidelines is measured. Frequently a quality assurance process verifies compliance of their specified metrics before an offer or promotion is extended. No cause for concern when as a company you are committed to fairness and ensure such through self-assessments.