Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited? • Hacker News Board

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#11

Post by notburnt » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 9:40 PM UTC

steego wrote: post #9

notburnt wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also interesting is how Kay dismisses Job's objections as being motivated by needing to put someone down. I can as easily see them being constructive usability criticisms: details that the engineers steeped in developing it missed, but concrete things that would stop actual customer adoption.

> Also interesting is how Kay dismisses Job's objections as being motivated by needing to put someone down. You realize that's a thing, right? People do that on both a conscious and subconscious level. Some people actively play those manipulation games, especially creative sales people. Some people merely benefit from that tactic without fully appreciating that they're doing it. I wasn't there, so I can't weigh in. I…

I realize that. Thanks for the condescension. But, you realize that people aren't motivated by just one thing, right? Even if they are business people, right?

Anyway, knowing what we know about Job's obsession with getting things right (as he saw it), you do think that his sniping at specific look and feel issues was just to put the engineers down?

To me, it's a more cohesive picture if I interpret his actions as being motivated by obsession to UX/asking more of engineers ( I know these guys weren't working for him).

But, as you said, neither of us were there.

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#12

Post by steego » Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 3:23 AM UTC

notburnt wrote: post #11

steego wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also interesting is how Kay dismisses Job's objections as being motivated by needing to put someone down. You realize that's a thing, right? People do that on both a conscious and subconscious level. Some people actively play those manipulation games, especially creative sales people. Some people merely benefit from that tactic without fully appreciating that they're doing it. I wasn't there, so I can't weigh in. I…

I realize that. Thanks for the condescension. But, you realize that people aren't motivated by just one thing, right? Even if they are business people, right? Anyway, knowing what we know about Job's obsession with getting things right (as he saw it), you do think that his sniping at specific look and feel issues was just to put the engineers down? To me, it's a more cohesive picture if I interpret his actions as bei…

> I realize that. Thanks for the condescension. But, you realize that people aren't motivated by just one thing, right? Even if they are business people, right?

I'm still not sure you do realize it. People are motivated by a lot of things, and sometimes people are willing to do dirty, shitty, manipulative tactics to get what they want.

One person said Jobs was as focused as a monk, but without the empathy. But that's one person, right?

> you do think that his sniping at specific look and feel issues was just to put the engineers down?

Funny you mention that. You know when he called up Bob Belleville from Xerox, he told him his work was shit and everything he had done was meaningless and that he should work for him. Do you think he was "obsessed with getting things right" and simply being critical, or does it sound like someone who is feeling out an engineer's low self-esteem much in the same way a pimp feels out a prospective ho?

You still don't think Jobs was above putting down the Xerox engineers to elevate himself and denigrate their own self-esteem?

He lied to Woz about money is his first business dealing and took credit for his work. He made sport of humiliating a prospective employees by asking if he was a virgin and then humiliating him in front of other people.

You may not realize it, but putting people down is a tactic actually works on some people. Some people have a capacity to insult people and make those people love them. I know, because I've worked with a number of these guys. They're usually in sales, and they're usually pretty good at it.

Jobs was a lot of things, and it could very easily argued he had an incredible capacity to be cruel, callous, petty and manipulative, especially in his younger days. I'm sure he could be a great guy too, but it's clear he also had a capacity to be a giant flaming asshole.

It sounds like you tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. That's not a bad thing, but sometimes you have to recognize that some people simply don't mind manipulating people. Does that round out your cohesive picture?

> But, as you said, neither of us were there.

Sure, but you're the only one who's discounting the account of the person who was there just because it doesn't fit your cohesive picture.

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#13

Post by justin66 » Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

notburnt wrote: post #8

justin66 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: First, it’s worth understanding that many people (perhaps even a thousand or more) had seen live demos of the Alto and Smalltalk before Steve. This is because Steve showed up in 1979, and the Alto and Smalltalk had been running for 6 years (starting in the first half of 1973), and we were a relatively open lab for visiting colleagues and other interested people (like Herbie Hancock and Al Gore).

Yeah, I read that: seems to support my point. Basically: they had been doing it for years, but Jobs saw what was missing to make it actually usable. Could be wrong: I wasn't there :)

You're wrong because the system already had users, and was by definition usable.

Jobs was throwing off first impressions, not deep or well considered insights. The question is why a person would go negative in such a situation.

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#14

Post by alankay1 » Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 6:32 PM UTC

steego wrote: post #9

notburnt wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also interesting is how Kay dismisses Job's objections as being motivated by needing to put someone down. I can as easily see them being constructive usability criticisms: details that the engineers steeped in developing it missed, but concrete things that would stop actual customer adoption.

> Also interesting is how Kay dismisses Job's objections as being motivated by needing to put someone down. You realize that's a thing, right? People do that on both a conscious and subconscious level. Some people actively play those manipulation games, especially creative sales people. Some people merely benefit from that tactic without fully appreciating that they're doing it. I wasn't there, so I can't weigh in. I…

You folks are missing some easily found and verified knowledge. For example, I knew Steve very well after this while I was Chief Scientist at Atari, and he hired me as an Apple Fellow in 1984. I was the person who took Steve to the group in Marin County who became Pixar. Steve used to send me "things" (like the iPad before it came out) for my opinion. I'm simply "reporting Steve".

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#15

Post by alankay1 » Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 6:34 PM UTC

notburnt wrote: post #5

steego wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That's exactly how he came to that conclusion. Alan Kay scanned the room, noted some of the the greatest minds and contributors of early personal computers, took one look at Steve Jobs and assessed he wasn't the smartest person in the room because he was a business person. It had nothing to do with his youth, lack of accomplishments, insight, ability to articulate himself at that age, etc. etc. etc. It also had…

Also interesting is how Kay dismisses Job's objections as being motivated by needing to put someone down. I can as easily see them being constructive usability criticisms: details that the engineers steeped in developing it missed, but concrete things that would stop actual customer adoption.

We weren't "engineers" at Parc, but a combination of many talents (check out the actual histories of the place -- why waste time speculating when there is much you could learn?)

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#16

Post by alankay1 » Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

steego wrote: post #3

marvel_boy wrote: post #2

> This was his way of trying to be “top gun” when in a room where he wasn’t the smartest person.) Why on the earth all the "business" people is so stupid ?

Yes. That's exactly how he came to that conclusion. Alan Kay scanned the room, noted some of the the greatest minds and contributors of early personal computers, took one look at Steve Jobs and assessed he wasn't the smartest person in the room because he was a business person. It had nothing to do with his youth, lack of accomplishments, insight, ability to articulate himself at that age, etc. etc. etc. It also had…

How do you presume to know all this? This is the kind of made up BS that pollutes any attempt to get at what is going on. What is your motivation for such pronouncements?

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#17

Post by alankay1 » Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 6:37 PM UTC

notburnt wrote: post #8

justin66 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: First, it’s worth understanding that many people (perhaps even a thousand or more) had seen live demos of the Alto and Smalltalk before Steve. This is because Steve showed up in 1979, and the Alto and Smalltalk had been running for 6 years (starting in the first half of 1973), and we were a relatively open lab for visiting colleagues and other interested people (like Herbie Hancock and Al Gore).

Yeah, I read that: seems to support my point. Basically: they had been doing it for years, but Jobs saw what was missing to make it actually usable. Could be wrong: I wasn't there :)

Yes, you are wrong. Do a little more work and reading, and you'll readily find out a bit more.

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#18

Post by alankay1 » Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 7:22 PM UTC

notburnt wrote: post #11

steego wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also interesting is how Kay dismisses Job's objections as being motivated by needing to put someone down. You realize that's a thing, right? People do that on both a conscious and subconscious level. Some people actively play those manipulation games, especially creative sales people. Some people merely benefit from that tactic without fully appreciating that they're doing it. I wasn't there, so I can't weigh in. I…

I realize that. Thanks for the condescension. But, you realize that people aren't motivated by just one thing, right? Even if they are business people, right? Anyway, knowing what we know about Job's obsession with getting things right (as he saw it), you do think that his sniping at specific look and feel issues was just to put the engineers down? To me, it's a more cohesive picture if I interpret his actions as bei…

Hi -- making up coherent stories is not a good way to find out what is going on. In this case, there is a lot of background information that could help to create a more supported opinion. (Humans can't help having opinions but we should put the unsupported ones in limbo at the very least.)

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#19

Post by steego » Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 11:58 PM UTC

alankay1 wrote: post #16

steego wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That's exactly how he came to that conclusion. Alan Kay scanned the room, noted some of the the greatest minds and contributors of early personal computers, took one look at Steve Jobs and assessed he wasn't the smartest person in the room because he was a business person. It had nothing to do with his youth, lack of accomplishments, insight, ability to articulate himself at that age, etc. etc. etc. It also had…

How do you presume to know all this? This is the kind of made up BS that pollutes any attempt to get at what is going on. What is your motivation for such pronouncements?

:) I'm sorry. I thought the sarcasm was dripping when I wrote this. It was my attempt to cut through the nonsense of his conclusion and to highlight that when Steve was visiting PARC, maybe the reason he wasn't "top gun" was because he was in the presence of some true giants at the time.

Re: Alan Kay on What was it like to be at Xerox PARC when Steve Jobs visited?

#20

Post by steego » Thu, Jun 22, 2017, 12:04 AM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #13

notburnt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I read that: seems to support my point. Basically: they had been doing it for years, but Jobs saw what was missing to make it actually usable. Could be wrong: I wasn't there :)

You're wrong because the system already had users, and was by definition usable. Jobs was throwing off first impressions, not deep or well considered insights. The question is why a person would go negative in such a situation.

He's also wrong because Jobs never assembled a team to create a desktop PC that was as powerful, simple, extensible and well thought out as the full Alto stack.

Even when they started NeXT, they still didn't fully realize the full potential of full dynamic, late bounded, messaged based object-oriented programming system.