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As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

nytimes.com

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Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#11

Post by colechristensen »

rhodysurf wrote: post #6
jboogie77 wrote: post #3

This should be obvious to any person who tutors people online. If you check out sites like https://schoolsolver.com or https://chegg.com they have become havens for programming questions. One could make the argument that it's partly the teachers fault for reusing old programming assignments. On the other hand, especially on something like school solver, there are plenty of programmers, living in 3rd world countries,…

They were havens for traditional engineering questions when I was in college too (Dynamics, Statics, Fluids, etc). Every homework question we had seemed to be available online somewhere and it let to kids simply copying answers instead of simply learning the same material they were copying. It got so bad the whole MechEng dept at my school got rid of homework in favor of problem sets that were solved in a given class…

My favorite class which I think I learned the best in, homework was given with answers and partial solutions. It was still graded, but more for "did you do stuff" and "this is what/where you did wrong".

It made homework not a test of how clever you were or how resourceful you were ... "collaborating" with your peers. It made it about solving problems with instant feedback. Waiting two weeks between doing a problem is a lot less helpful.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#12

Post by loeg »

taurath wrote: post #9
johnfn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saves time. It's a lot easier to determine if you are capable from "my GPA is x" rather than having someone sit down and write code for a few hours and doing a code review.

Everyone does code review or whiteboards now in industry at least - it's not as if you're offered a residency or job after you get a degree unless it's a pretty good degree with some actual interviewing.

Interviewing someone who will not pass is more expensive than not doing so.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#13

Post by blhack »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #4

What's with the obsession with student assessment over student learning? At the end of the day the student has to perform, and there are plenty of opportunities to build up a network of people that will assert you know your stuff. Why is it that grades are still a thing at this level?

Grades are a thing becaue the people who pay for school curriculuum need a way of quantifying what they actually purchased.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#14

Post by parennoob »

EDIT: My comment completely missed that there were 100 lines of identical code noticed as well. Leaving below for context.

-------

Does anyone else find the example cited in the article rather flimsy? Out of 450, two students incorrectly used the inverse of a Boolean for a conditional – an error I have seen tens, if not hundreds of times.

Perhaps they used better ways of detecting cheating (some are covered later in the article) for uncovering the collusion in this specific case. If not, this “veteran computer science professor” is going on unnecessary witch hunts.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#15

Post by robotic »

This reminds me of My last year at university. At our final senior project we each had to give a group presentation. I remember this one group that showed off this VB6 program (which was considered outdated language even then). They didn't know how to run the program without opening visual studio and clicking run. They didn't even have basic understanding of compilation/run phases. They couldn't answer basic questions about the code. Obvious to everyone they copied the code. Yet they still passed the class.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#16

Post by rhodysurf »

colechristensen wrote: post #11
rhodysurf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were havens for traditional engineering questions when I was in college too (Dynamics, Statics, Fluids, etc). Every homework question we had seemed to be available online somewhere and it let to kids simply copying answers instead of simply learning the same material they were copying. It got so bad the whole MechEng dept at my school got rid of homework in favor of problem sets that were solved in a given class…

My favorite class which I think I learned the best in, homework was given with answers and partial solutions. It was still graded, but more for "did you do stuff" and "this is what/where you did wrong". It made homework not a test of how clever you were or how resourceful you were ... "collaborating" with your peers. It made it about solving problems with instant feedback. Waiting two weeks between doing a problem is…

I agree. Thats how all of my upper level classes were taught once everything got a bit more specific and trustworthy.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#17

Post by coralreef »

loeg wrote: post #12
taurath wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone does code review or whiteboards now in industry at least - it's not as if you're offered a residency or job after you get a degree unless it's a pretty good degree with some actual interviewing.

Interviewing someone who will not pass is more expensive than not doing so.

Its a sunk cost. You won't know if they pass or not until you interview them.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#18

Post by twblalock »

sanderjd wrote: post #8
HarryHirsch wrote: post #4

What's with the obsession with student assessment over student learning? At the end of the day the student has to perform, and there are plenty of opportunities to build up a network of people that will assert you know your stuff. Why is it that grades are still a thing at this level?

Unfortunately, unless that network of people includes people with hiring authority, it is not very helpful. Employers seem to put very little stock in references.

Having a personal connection is by far the best way to get a job in any field, including software. Employers care very much about references from people they know.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#19

Post by paulcole »

robotic wrote: post #15

This reminds me of My last year at university. At our final senior project we each had to give a group presentation. I remember this one group that showed off this VB6 program (which was considered outdated language even then). They didn't know how to run the program without opening visual studio and clicking run. They didn't even have basic understanding of compilation/run phases. They couldn't answer basic question…

With tuition what it is these days, kids aren't paying to be failed.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#20

Post by keerthiko »

What they call "cheating" is how I do my job as a developer of a 3-person (dev) software company. We make software. People like it and use it. We make money.

Who cares whether the code came from our head or from something publicly available on the internet, or from someone willing to help us? As long as it wasn't an actual violation of the law. There's no good reason to create a separate set of laws for the classroom than the real world.

Can we just accept that this is how software is meant to be developed? Beyond the very intro level, the real assignments and challenges given to students should be about how to utilize, extend, integrate and optimize easily available existing code, not how to reinvent (regurgitate, rather) the wheel. This tests and improves understanding just as well as, if not better than making them implement from scratch. Evaluate the student's understanding and the quality of his output, not how independently they wrote the code.

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