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History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

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Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#11
post #5
post #2

tl;dr Emacs and vi keybindings are a product of inferior keyboards used at the time of their inception and not (I repeat, NOT) a superior way of text editing which philistines can't comprehend. Programmers are the worst cargo cultists.

One day i'll be able to downvote

Or not. I had over 300 points when I was banned for religious content in odd comments

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#12
post #3
post #2

tl;dr Emacs and vi keybindings are a product of inferior keyboards used at the time of their inception and not (I repeat, NOT) a superior way of text editing which philistines can't comprehend. Programmers are the worst cargo cultists.

Do you have better designs? If you're using Emacs-style editing, you want Ctrl shortcuts. If you're using vi-style modal editing, you want single keys to move around. What would you recommend? Note that moving your hand to the arrow keys is, while more intuitive, slower and requiring more thought than the other options presented (once these options are learned).

Mac default keymap looks intuitive enough for me. Opt+arrows for skipping words, Cmd+arrows for sentences. Beats absolutely arbitrary Ctrl-A/Ctrl-E and ^/$ definitively.

(I am a proficient touch typist, but I can't adapt to hjkl in lieu of arrow keys — not to mention the context shifting overhead for two vim modes).

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#13
post #2

tl;dr Emacs and vi keybindings are a product of inferior keyboards used at the time of their inception and not (I repeat, NOT) a superior way of text editing which philistines can't comprehend. Programmers are the worst cargo cultists.

Having caps lock where it is on current keyboards is in no way a superior design. It's a useless key in a prime location! Give me those "inferior" keyboards any day.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#14
post #2

tl;dr Emacs and vi keybindings are a product of inferior keyboards used at the time of their inception and not (I repeat, NOT) a superior way of text editing which philistines can't comprehend. Programmers are the worst cargo cultists.

Having caps lock where it is on current keyboards is in no way a superior design. It's a useless key in a prime location! Give me those "inferior" keyboards any day.

I agree, modern keyboards are not perfect. But they are more intuitive and approachable than those monstrocities (I started with one of these — and when a modern Model M layout finally appeared, it was a pure bliss).

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having caps lock where it is on current keyboards is in no way a superior design. It's a useless key in a prime location! Give me those "inferior" keyboards any day.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

Yeah, C-n is just _perfect_ to reach. Just thinking of it makes my arm twitch and glow with pain. I am starting to suspect that Emacs original keybinding designer (Richard?) is actually an octopus.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#16
post #5
post #2

tl;dr Emacs and vi keybindings are a product of inferior keyboards used at the time of their inception and not (I repeat, NOT) a superior way of text editing which philistines can't comprehend. Programmers are the worst cargo cultists.

One day i'll be able to downvote

...rationalizing cargo cultists.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having caps lock where it is on current keyboards is in no way a superior design. It's a useless key in a prime location! Give me those "inferior" keyboards any day.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

For me, symmetric C- and M- provides a good layout because I can use either hand for C- or M- and the other for the additional keypress. Having one on either side of the spacebar but asymmetricly located is ok, but not as good.

I have found that having only one C- key on the keyboard becomes uncomfortable over time. For example C-a and C-e and C-x and C-f contort my hand more with only a left hand C- key...looking for this in a keyboard is one of the things I learned from Xah's site.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

Yeah, C-n is just _perfect_ to reach. Just thinking of it makes my arm twitch and glow with pain. I am starting to suspect that Emacs original keybinding designer (Richard?) is actually an octopus.

He had a keyboard with important keys on both sides of the spacebar because the assumption was that a user would interact with the computer in sophisticated ways such as or similar to programming. Most current keyboards are designed for cost saving or consumption or just by copying mediocre designs that are common.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#19
post #2

tl;dr Emacs and vi keybindings are a product of inferior keyboards used at the time of their inception and not (I repeat, NOT) a superior way of text editing which philistines can't comprehend. Programmers are the worst cargo cultists.

That's a bit of an oversimplification. Especially given how none of those keyboards look THAT different than what we use today. In particular, Vim's use of the home row for movement is objectively better than moving your hand off the home row and using the arrow keys (which you can do if you wish as well). I'm sure if someone was creating Vim today, they might choose WASD instead since many are familiar with the use…

I would prefer they pick jkl; instead of hjkl. I'm not a fan of shifting my right hand left and even less enthused about forcing my index finger into double duty on jh.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#20
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have better designs? If you're using Emacs-style editing, you want Ctrl shortcuts. If you're using vi-style modal editing, you want single keys to move around. What would you recommend? Note that moving your hand to the arrow keys is, while more intuitive, slower and requiring more thought than the other options presented (once these options are learned).

Mac default keymap looks intuitive enough for me. Opt+arrows for skipping words, Cmd+arrows for sentences. Beats absolutely arbitrary Ctrl-A/Ctrl-E and ^/$ definitively. (I am a proficient touch typist, but I can't adapt to hjkl in lieu of arrow keys — not to mention the context shifting overhead for two vim modes).

Is holding down one or more modifiers and pressing a key not a similar context switch? Typing 'v' enters a 'v' character, cmd/ctrl-v pastes from the clipboard. There's no logical connection between the two except that you've probably had that one memorized for decades. The difference in vim is that you don't use modifiers when you're in normal mode (usually).

Side note: TWO vim modes? I guess you're never had the pleasure of stumbling into ex mode

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