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NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

theintercept.com

11–20 of 65 posts

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#11
The greatest brute-force attack successes that we know of are generally reversing password hashes, because the input spaces and/or effective input spaces under some model of a password's structure are so small. People have achieved very effective results with that, often using special hardware.

The most common attack model for this is "get ahold of a hashed password list, try to reverse as many as possible, then try to see if any has re-used those passwords on other systems". Spy agencies might be doing that too. By contrast, as Bunnie says, modern algorithms have a very large safety margin so brute-force against a random key is very implausible without some significant new algorithmic insight.

So one question is, are there significant security-sensitive deployments that are still out there of obsolete stuff with too short a keylength? 1024-bit RSA, 1024-bit DH, DES, export ciphers?

If, on the other hand, it's really mostly about password hashes, where brute force has been known to be so effective, are there any other attack contexts where the ability to reverse a password hash would be useful?

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#12
This is malpractice:

Widespread modern encryption methods like RSA, named for the initials of the cryptographers who developed it, rely on the use of hugely complex numbers derived from prime numbers. Speaking very roughly, so long as those original prime numbers remain secret, the integrity of the encoded data will remain safe. But were someone able to factor the hugely complex number — a process identical to the sort of math exercise children are taught to do on a chalkboard, but on a massive scale — they would be able to decode the data on their own. Luckily for those using encryption, the numbers in question are so long that they can only be factored down to their prime numbers with an extremely large amount of computing power. Unluckily for those using encryption, government agencies in the U.S., Norway, and around the globe are keenly interested in computers designed to excel at exactly this purpose.

The point of modern RSA is that we use a modulus that can't be factored by any conceivable computer, with limits derived from the physics of computation and projected far out into the future. We aren't a supercomputer advance away from factoring 2048 bit moduli. The government's "keen interest" in that problem is irrelevant.

We've known for coming up on 2 decades, at least (from Eran Tromer in 2001-2003) that 1024 bit moduli aren't safe. There's been speculation for years that the NSA is standing up giant compute clusters in Utah to target 1024 bit discrete logs (it's speculation because it's hard to see how those attacks make economic sense, even with advances in batch attacks). If we want to suppose that IBM and NSA are mounting a supercomputing attack on weak crypto, fine. The presumption that these attacks will get more viable is why, for instance, the WebPKI is urgently scrubbing itself of 1024 bit keys and has been for years.

But that's not what this article says. Instead, it puts forward a narrative that the USG is collaborating with IBM to build supercomputers that would break all of RSA. Not only is that not what's happening, but if it was, IBM and the USG would be doing us a great service, because we can't rely on cryptography that is a supercomputing advance away from being broken.

Needless to say, they're not really doing us a service, and they're not really about to break RSA, and breaking RSA isn't a really big IBM purchase order away from happening.

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#13
post #11

The greatest brute-force attack successes that we know of are generally reversing password hashes, because the input spaces and/or effective input spaces under some model of a password's structure are so small. People have achieved very effective results with that, often using special hardware. The most common attack model for this is "get ahold of a hashed password list, try to reverse as many as possible, then try…

This is off the top of my head and I'd welcome correction:

Large scale password cracking has a much clearer payoff than attacks on 1024 bit DH, which have to be targeted to individual (probably TLS) connections. The RSA that most of the Internet depends on is brokered by CAs --- so, problem 1, the USG already owns CAs and doesn't need supercomputers to get valid certificates, problem 2, the most valuable "authentic" CA signatures are 2048 bit and far outside the capabilities of an IBM supercomputer, and problem 3, even after breaking that certificate you still have to target individual TLS connections to use it.

On the other hand, you don't need the world's most powerful supercomputer to effectively crack passwords.

It's not unlikely that the simplest explanation here is just "the NSA will do whatever thing secures it the largest budget". That doesn't mean they won't use those budget-enhancing projects in ways that will shock our conscience!

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#14
post #12

This is malpractice: Widespread modern encryption methods like RSA, named for the initials of the cryptographers who developed it, rely on the use of hugely complex numbers derived from prime numbers. Speaking very roughly, so long as those original prime numbers remain secret, the integrity of the encoded data will remain safe. But were someone able to factor the hugely complex number — a process identical to the so…

Sorry to see you conclude the piece, or that portion, is malpractice :-\

The paragraph you quote was intended to give an overview of one type of work a machine like WindsorGreen might do, in broad terms. While it's true we mention RSA as a very basic example of the sort of thing a government would be /interested/ in breaking, we also specifically quote a security researcher saying WindsorGreen “might also have applications for things like … breaking older/weaker (1024 bit) RSA keys” and then quote another (bunnie) saying "“Even if [WindsorGreen] gave a 100x advantage in cracking strength, it’s a pittance compared to the additional strength conferred by going from say, 1024-bit RSA to 4096-bit RSA or going from SHA-1 to SHA-256.”

It's really not clear to me how the piece "puts forward a narrative that the USG is collaborating with IBM to build supercomputers that would break all of RSA" -- indeed, it specifically says this would be of use primarily against 1024-bit RSA.

That said, I'm definitely curious how you think the piece could have framed this more obviously for the lay reader.

(If it's not clear, I work at The Intercept.)

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#15
post #13
post #11

The greatest brute-force attack successes that we know of are generally reversing password hashes, because the input spaces and/or effective input spaces under some model of a password's structure are so small. People have achieved very effective results with that, often using special hardware. The most common attack model for this is "get ahold of a hashed password list, try to reverse as many as possible, then try…

This is off the top of my head and I'd welcome correction: Large scale password cracking has a much clearer payoff than attacks on 1024 bit DH, which have to be targeted to individual (probably TLS) connections. The RSA that most of the Internet depends on is brokered by CAs --- so, problem 1, the USG already owns CAs and doesn't need supercomputers to get valid certificates, problem 2, the most valuable "authentic"…

I suppose I'm also wondering if there's an authentication protocol where the challenger actually tells the prover what hash it has to match. Does a challenger ever effectively say "Please tell me the secret whose SHA256 is equal to fcdf324499312efa027b5033513b0c0968f74ae7ba81a271ae62b3dda2cd4143 in order to proceed"?

Maybe protocols where the attacker has access to a signature over some data, but doesn't get access to the signed data in plaintext? Then the attacker could try to brute-force values of the signed data using the hash that forms the basis of the signature?

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#16
Is this really about a "code-breaking computer", or just some big data collection and analysis cluster? A code-breaking machine would look like a Bitcoin mining farm - all ASICs, very little storage, not much I/O, no disks. An collection and analysis machine looks like an ordinary data center.

Is this maybe the Cyrogenic Computer Complexity Program? [1] That's an attempt to build a 10GHz machine running in liquid helium.

[1] https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&i...

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#17

So where are the documents? Not much of a story without them....

They're classified...if the guy who discovered they were publicly revealed on accident had actually provided them to the Intercept, he would certainly have lost his job, and likely ended up in prison.

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#18
post #14
post #12

This is malpractice: Widespread modern encryption methods like RSA, named for the initials of the cryptographers who developed it, rely on the use of hugely complex numbers derived from prime numbers. Speaking very roughly, so long as those original prime numbers remain secret, the integrity of the encoded data will remain safe. But were someone able to factor the hugely complex number — a process identical to the so…

Sorry to see you conclude the piece, or that portion, is malpractice :-\ The paragraph you quote was intended to give an overview of one type of work a machine like WindsorGreen might do, in broad terms. While it's true we mention RSA as a very basic example of the sort of thing a government would be /interested/ in breaking, we also specifically quote a security researcher saying WindsorGreen “might also have applic…

I'm guessing Thomas thinks that only problems that supercomputers can, in fact, usefully attack should be mentioned as the likely targets of this computer. :-)

Although the experts quoted only mention 1024-bit keys as targets of attack, the particular paragraph that Thomas mentioned really seems to suggest that RSA in general may be within reach. The worst problem is the last two sentences:

> Luckily for those using encryption, the numbers in question are so long that they can only be factored down to their prime numbers with an extremely large amount of computing power. Unluckily for those using encryption, government agencies in the U.S., Norway, and around the globe are keenly interested in computers designed to excel at exactly this purpose.

This doesn't mention anything about key lengths, but in a sense key lengths are nearly the whole story with regard to the feasibility of brute-force attacks against RSA. Particularly, both sentences refer to "those using encryption" as an undifferentiated class put at risk by this sort of project, and that's one thing that particularly suggests that all of RSA is at risk.

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#19

So where are the documents? Not much of a story without them....

They're classified...if the guy who discovered they were publicly revealed on accident had actually provided them to the Intercept, he would certainly have lost his job, and likely ended up in prison.

The Intercept article says that they gave the documents to at least three (named) experts to review in their entirety, suggested that the Intercept does possess them but decided to publish only a small excerpt.

Re: NYU Accidentally Exposed Military Code-Breaking Computer

#20
post #13
post #11

The greatest brute-force attack successes that we know of are generally reversing password hashes, because the input spaces and/or effective input spaces under some model of a password's structure are so small. People have achieved very effective results with that, often using special hardware. The most common attack model for this is "get ahold of a hashed password list, try to reverse as many as possible, then try…

This is off the top of my head and I'd welcome correction: Large scale password cracking has a much clearer payoff than attacks on 1024 bit DH, which have to be targeted to individual (probably TLS) connections. The RSA that most of the Internet depends on is brokered by CAs --- so, problem 1, the USG already owns CAs and doesn't need supercomputers to get valid certificates, problem 2, the most valuable "authentic"…

> so, problem 1, the USG already owns CAs and doesn't need supercomputers to get valid certificates

I'm sure it's gotten a lot tougher out there for this kind of thing since the Comodo and DigiNotar attacks. Looking forward to more mandatory CT mechanisms!

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