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How billions vanish into the security industry

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Re: How billions vanish into the security industry

#11

Post by tomcam »

secfirstmd wrote: post #5

Part of the problem is that genuinely innovative ideas from small businesses find it impossible to navigate the mess that is EU related funding. Meaning only the big players can access them. Also, the amount of unnecessary duplication and crap sold in the security industry is unbelievable. If you go to the Counter Terrorism Expo in London, you can see this. Dozens of organisations selling effectively the same stuff.…

> costing 50% more than their US-made Longbow equivalents

When U.S. military equipment is considered a bargain... you're in deep doo-doo

Re: How billions vanish into the security industry

#13

Post by colechristensen »

secfirstmd wrote: post #5

Part of the problem is that genuinely innovative ideas from small businesses find it impossible to navigate the mess that is EU related funding. Meaning only the big players can access them. Also, the amount of unnecessary duplication and crap sold in the security industry is unbelievable. If you go to the Counter Terrorism Expo in London, you can see this. Dozens of organisations selling effectively the same stuff.…

>They are effectively a hidden British government job scheme.

There is inherent value in simply having an existing capable defense contractor in your own nation. It isn't about dollars and cents, it's about being capable of fighting a war without outside help (or not being wholly dependent). So you throw money at the local defense contractor to keep it alive. It's expensive to do this, but if you don't you pay for it in other ways because if you buy all of your equipment from foreign defense contractors they can use that as political leverage against you.

A lot of money is spent being prepared for wars that won't happen _because_ everyone is prepared for them.

Re: How billions vanish into the security industry

#14

Post by toyg »

colechristensen wrote: post #13
secfirstmd wrote: post #5

Part of the problem is that genuinely innovative ideas from small businesses find it impossible to navigate the mess that is EU related funding. Meaning only the big players can access them. Also, the amount of unnecessary duplication and crap sold in the security industry is unbelievable. If you go to the Counter Terrorism Expo in London, you can see this. Dozens of organisations selling effectively the same stuff.…

>They are effectively a hidden British government job scheme. There is inherent value in simply having an existing capable defense contractor in your own nation. It isn't about dollars and cents, it's about being capable of fighting a war without outside help (or not being wholly dependent). So you throw money at the local defense contractor to keep it alive. It's expensive to do this, but if you don't you pay for it…

... and then the contractor turns around and gives you China-built parts and US-built software to run them, with little meaningful independence gained.

The industrial world by now is too globalized for this sort of approach to work. We keep pretending otherwise so that money keeps flowing and the general public doesn't freak out, but I bet even the almighty US cannot certify that most of their tech is built at home.

Re: How billions vanish into the security industry

#15

Post by ceejayoz »

secfirstmd wrote: post #5

Part of the problem is that genuinely innovative ideas from small businesses find it impossible to navigate the mess that is EU related funding. Meaning only the big players can access them. Also, the amount of unnecessary duplication and crap sold in the security industry is unbelievable. If you go to the Counter Terrorism Expo in London, you can see this. Dozens of organisations selling effectively the same stuff.…

> There are many cases where UK tax payer would actually save money by firing the people in the jobs, giving them golden payoffs and buying more effective equipment elsewhere.

The UK learned their lesson on that approach decades ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassau_Agreement#Skybolt_Crisi...

Re: How billions vanish into the security industry

#16

Post by pavement »

toyg wrote: post #14
colechristensen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are effectively a hidden British government job scheme. There is inherent value in simply having an existing capable defense contractor in your own nation. It isn't about dollars and cents, it's about being capable of fighting a war without outside help (or not being wholly dependent). So you throw money at the local defense contractor to keep it alive. It's expensive to do this, but if you don't you pay for it…

... and then the contractor turns around and gives you China-built parts and US-built software to run them, with little meaningful independence gained. The industrial world by now is too globalized for this sort of approach to work. We keep pretending otherwise so that money keeps flowing and the general public doesn't freak out, but I bet even the almighty US cannot certify that most of their tech is built at home.

  I bet even the almighty US cannot certify 
  that most of their tech is built at home.
Probably only the shit that matters. The nuclear weapons, first and foremost, and then an exponential decay in validation as you get less and less lethal.

I gotta figure the F-35 is cover for several substantial black budgets at this point, and that it's actually much cheaper than the paper trail would have us believe, simply because I remember reading about the presumed obsolescence of manned warplanes back when the YF-22 and YF-23 were battling for the F-15 replacement program, before the F-22 won.

My rationale being, if pilots are worthless in airplanes, then it doesn't actually matter if the program is properly funded, and it becomes an ideal smoke screen for time and effort diverted elsewhere.

I became even more convinced when I found out the F-22's and the F-35's avionics both were controlled over a firewire bus.

Re: How billions vanish into the security industry

#17

Post by TP4Cornholio »

People like to knock on government funded research on security/defense here, but it is actually one of the reasons the US leads in tech. DARPA produced the arpanet, the predecessor to the internet. Also, while everyone is aware of Stanford and silicon manufacturers contributions to making Silicon Valley, the defense industry also played a big part in SV's early days. And let's not forget Alan Turing was working for the British government to defeat the nazis. Funding research is a great idea.

Re: How billions vanish into the security industry

#18

Post by [deleted] »

colechristensen wrote: post #13
secfirstmd wrote: post #5

Part of the problem is that genuinely innovative ideas from small businesses find it impossible to navigate the mess that is EU related funding. Meaning only the big players can access them. Also, the amount of unnecessary duplication and crap sold in the security industry is unbelievable. If you go to the Counter Terrorism Expo in London, you can see this. Dozens of organisations selling effectively the same stuff.…

>They are effectively a hidden British government job scheme. There is inherent value in simply having an existing capable defense contractor in your own nation. It isn't about dollars and cents, it's about being capable of fighting a war without outside help (or not being wholly dependent). So you throw money at the local defense contractor to keep it alive. It's expensive to do this, but if you don't you pay for it…

[deleted]

Re: How billions vanish into the security industry

#19

Post by colechristensen »

toyg wrote: post #14
colechristensen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are effectively a hidden British government job scheme. There is inherent value in simply having an existing capable defense contractor in your own nation. It isn't about dollars and cents, it's about being capable of fighting a war without outside help (or not being wholly dependent). So you throw money at the local defense contractor to keep it alive. It's expensive to do this, but if you don't you pay for it…

... and then the contractor turns around and gives you China-built parts and US-built software to run them, with little meaningful independence gained. The industrial world by now is too globalized for this sort of approach to work. We keep pretending otherwise so that money keeps flowing and the general public doesn't freak out, but I bet even the almighty US cannot certify that most of their tech is built at home.

> I bet even the almighty US cannot certify that most of their tech is built at home.

It's not as hard as you think, the contracts and governing laws are big and complicated governing who can do what and know what which is part of why things are so expensive.

The primary business of being a defense contractor isn't building things, it's interacting with the government and farming out work to other companies. A whole lot of that is just compliance.

Re: How billions vanish into the security industry

#20

Post by giancarlostoro »

TP4Cornholio wrote: post #17

People like to knock on government funded research on security/defense here, but it is actually one of the reasons the US leads in tech. DARPA produced the arpanet, the predecessor to the internet. Also, while everyone is aware of Stanford and silicon manufacturers contributions to making Silicon Valley, the defense industry also played a big part in SV's early days. And let's not forget Alan Turing was working for t…

What you're saying is correct, but I must note it doesn't mean there can never be bad apples. There's always someone ruining the fun for everyone else I suppose. But yeah there's been all sorts of interesting projects from the defense / security sector.
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