Live data from Hacker News

When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

nytimes.com

11–20 of 79 posts

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#11
Bad article.

>The clumsy wings of males could be rationalized as a handicap that provides information about the birds’ condition or genetic quality.

Also known as an honest indicator of fitness.

>But the observation that female club-wings have also probably made themselves less capable fliers can only be described as decadent —

Why the "probably" there? Previously the author mentioned that the bones where hollow in the females, unlike the males. Maybe they can fly just fine!

>sexual selection leading to a decline in the capacity for survival.

Yeah but, the fact that they exist, shows that they have survived.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#12
post #10

I will just echo the other posts here that the author of this article or his sources severely misunderstand natural selection and the special case of sexual selection. The most important thing to understand about evolution is that natural selection can only work with the existing traits of an organism, the current environment in which the organism exists, and what random changes happen. Furthermore, every change in t…

> the author of this article or his sources severely misunderstand natural selection and the special case of sexual selection. The author of this article is an Evolutionary Biology researcher at Yale. It would be really weird if he severely misunderstood natural selection.

everybody misunderstands natural selection. the field is large enough for a great deal of misunderstanding.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#13
post #10

I will just echo the other posts here that the author of this article or his sources severely misunderstand natural selection and the special case of sexual selection. The most important thing to understand about evolution is that natural selection can only work with the existing traits of an organism, the current environment in which the organism exists, and what random changes happen. Furthermore, every change in t…

> the author of this article or his sources severely misunderstand natural selection and the special case of sexual selection. The author of this article is an Evolutionary Biology researcher at Yale. It would be really weird if he severely misunderstood natural selection.

It seems the several critics in this thread think that generalizing and flattening fitness into One Principle is a superior perspective. There's nothing wrong with the article, since the whole point of it is to talk about the nuances of different types of selection.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#15
post #2

> But the evolutionary mechanism behind this novelty is not adaptation by natural selection, in which only those who survive pass on their genes, allowing the species to become better adapted to its environment over time. Rather, it is sexual selection by mate choice, in which individuals pass on their genes only if they’re chosen as mates. TFA has a weird definition for natural selection. Evolution has no preference…

> sexual selection is natural selection

It's a matter of definition, I think. Darwin made a distinction between natural selection and sexual selection,

> Sexual selection was first proposed by Charles Darwin in The Origin of Species (1859) and developed in The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex (1871), as he felt that natural selection alone was unable to account for certain types of non-survival adaptations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection

So the distinction the article here makes is a reasonable one with a long history. But more recently, the terms are often defined as non-distinct,

> Factors that affect reproductive success are also important, including sexual selection (now often included in natural selection) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#16
The title reminds me of a species we're all familiar with where the females are adopting increasingly high standards for mates based in obsolete evolutionary preferences which have no applicability to fitness in the current environment, and where the skills relevant to survival in the current environment are ironically often seen as unattractive by the females, and males who cultivate these skills often don't have the time to develop the portions of the aforementioned obsolete traits that are trainable.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#17
post #10

I will just echo the other posts here that the author of this article or his sources severely misunderstand natural selection and the special case of sexual selection. The most important thing to understand about evolution is that natural selection can only work with the existing traits of an organism, the current environment in which the organism exists, and what random changes happen. Furthermore, every change in t…

> the author of this article or his sources severely misunderstand natural selection and the special case of sexual selection. The author of this article is an Evolutionary Biology researcher at Yale. It would be really weird if he severely misunderstood natural selection.

I think this researcher had his "science journalist" hat on when he wrote the article. It's a formulaic piece of science journalism, complete with the touch of "most biologists are wrong about something that you, the layperson reader, will realize the truth about after five minutes of tenth grade-level reading." "Most biologists" here might as well be replaced with Mos'blogist, the mythical God of Wrongness, whom we invoke when we want to get excited about learning something new. "Mommy, I don't want to read about evolution." "But I have something here that Mos'blogist doesn't knowwwww! Don't you want to be smarter than Mos'blogist?" "Yay, mommy, I love getting the jump on Mos'blogist!"

Yes, Virginia, "most biologists," who get their news from Nature and Cell, are sadly lagging behind laypeople who read the New York Times. Is it any wonder people have so little faith in scientists? I think science journalists have a responsibility to highlight the fallibility of scientists and the flaws of the scientific process, but it is not public-minded criticism to make your readers believe that the majority of scientists working in an area are too dense to understand something that an average person can understand from a newspaper article, or already did understand if they read a single pop science book about evolution in the last several decades. That's just pandering.

Now, we could make the same mistake and assume that we, who do not write science journalism, have noticed something about it that one of its most successful practitioners (published in the New York Times, after all) never has. Or we could assume he understands it better than we do and does this shit on purpose because he likes being published.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#18

reminded me of a much more interesting article I read a few years ago on the same subject: https://www.edge.org/conversation/richard_prum-duck-sex-aest...

Thanks, just read that. I agree it's far more interesting. It's also more nuanced, and gives a better idea of the nature of the debate.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#19

The title reminds me of a species we're all familiar with where the females are adopting increasingly high standards for mates based in obsolete evolutionary preferences which have no applicability to fitness in the current environment, and where the skills relevant to survival in the current environment are ironically often seen as unattractive by the females, and males who cultivate these skills often don't have th…

What obsolete traits are you talking about?

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#20
post #5
post #3

The puzzlement over the apparent reproductive disadvantages of wing-singing is simply a reflection of a misunderstanding of how evolution works. Evolution does not select for the reproductive fitness of species, it selects for the reproductive fitness of genes . And it does not select for the absolute fitness of genes, but rather for their fitness relative to competing alleles with respect to a particular environment…

You're describing this viewpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-centered_view_of_evolutio... however I don't think it's really an accepted (in terms of evidence) theory that explains all evolution. I think most biologists think that evolution selects at multiple levels (although likely the underlying processes are much more complex than just that). After all, no real visible phenotype is truly based on a single…

I think he doesn't describe GCVOE but rather uses it to explain the apparent paradox.

Naively expecting "better" organisms to win fails to explain why these birds are evolving progressively "worse".

But if you go down and look at genes which handicap the male while triggering some silly attractiveness glitch in females versus genes that don't, it becomes clear that as long as the handicap isn't too strong, the former genes may easily win.

I think that's a point for the GCVOE this time.

Post reply on HN