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Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

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Re: Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

#11

Post by sedatk »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #5
makmanalp wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Turk - The Yörüks are not necessarily obscure but not really very well known or oft-mentioned either like other ethnic groups like the Laz, Kurds, Circassians, Turkmens, etc. So it would be surprising to hear that many foreigners ever even heard of them at the time, let alone Tolkien. Then again, I guess I wouldn't put it past him to have encyclopedic knowledge of mythologies and histories. More: https://en.wiki…

I was going to say that, to my ears, the Black Speech of the inscription on the One Ring sounds a lot like Turkish, but I'm not a Turkish speaker [1]. So I looked for a few examples of (modern) Turkish and I have to say that- maybe not, after all? Compare: Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. [2] With: Bütün insanlar hür, haysiyet ve haklar bakımından eşit doğarlar.…

Try an older Turkic text like Uyghur inscription:

nama but : nama darm : namo [sang] altun önglüg y(a)ruk yaltrık -lığ kopda kôtrülmiş nom iligi atl(ı)ğ nom bitigde kılınç adartmakın ôçürmek atl(ı)ğ bişinç bölük üçü[nç tegz]

Re: Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

#12

Post by thaumasiotes »

adrianratnapala wrote: post #10
thaumasiotes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hittite a (distantly) Indo-European language "Distantly"?

It is very old and branched off from the rest earlier than all the other recognized ones. Some say it is not even Indo-European. But that is a distinction without a difference, all sides seem to agree that Indo-European, including, Hittite, and Indo-European without it are both good "clades". So there is no disagreement about past linguistic events; the only disagreement is the judgement call about what to name thing…

Being very old makes it closer to Proto-Indo-European than any other known language. Proto-Indo-European is, obviously, older than Hittite.

Re: Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

#13

Post by makmanalp »

sedatk wrote: post #11
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to say that, to my ears, the Black Speech of the inscription on the One Ring sounds a lot like Turkish, but I'm not a Turkish speaker [1]. So I looked for a few examples of (modern) Turkish and I have to say that- maybe not, after all? Compare: Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. [2] With: Bütün insanlar hür, haysiyet ve haklar bakımından eşit doğarlar.…

Try an older Turkic text like Uyghur inscription: nama but : nama darm : namo [sang] altun önglüg y(a)ruk yaltrık -lığ kopda kôtrülmiş nom iligi atl(ı)ğ nom bitigde kılınç adartmakın ôçürmek atl(ı)ğ bişinç bölük üçü[nç tegz]

This is more like it! Still, that inscription seems to have vowel harmony, and the uruk-hai text doesn't ("gimbatul", "krimpatul"). Oh well, it's fantasy after all.

Also, re: food: "dolmades"! :-) The interesting thing about words like "karpouzi" is that again, the o and i don't harmonize because the former is a low vowel, and the latter is a high vowel, and that's a pretty strong clue that it's been changed, because there are very few if any words in Turkish that don't follow vowel harmony. We say "karpuz". Then again, who knows who had it first and who changed it after! :P

Re: Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

#14

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

makmanalp wrote: post #13
sedatk wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try an older Turkic text like Uyghur inscription: nama but : nama darm : namo [sang] altun önglüg y(a)ruk yaltrık -lığ kopda kôtrülmiş nom iligi atl(ı)ğ nom bitigde kılınç adartmakın ôçürmek atl(ı)ğ bişinç bölük üçü[nç tegz]

This is more like it! Still, that inscription seems to have vowel harmony, and the uruk-hai text doesn't ("gimbatul", "krimpatul"). Oh well, it's fantasy after all. Also, re: food: "dolmades"! :-) The interesting thing about words like "karpouzi" is that again, the o and i don't harmonize because the former is a low vowel, and the latter is a high vowel, and that's a pretty strong clue that it's been changed, because…

Aw, dolmades, how did I leave that out :D

I didn't know about vowel harmony, but it seems we have many, many words from Turkish in Greek that are just the Turkish word with an "-i" stuck at the end: pasoumi, ati, ginati, gieri ("gut", from cigeri), kapaki, kaloupi etc etc. I guess that just brings the sound of the word more in line with what we're used to in the rest of the Greek language.

In Greek we don't have the long-"u" that Turkish has (incidentally, that long "u" sounds very similar to the French "u" to me, French being my second language) so we basically change it to the shorter, rounder "ou", hence "karpouzi" instead of "karpuz". Sometimes we just shorten and round-out an "o" sound also: we say "boudroumi", for "dungeon", coming from "bodrum" I reckon (the old joke is that "Boudroumia & Baboules" is the Greek version of "Dungeons & Dragons"; I don't know if "baboulas" comes from Turkish- it means "bogeyman").

It's funny because not speaking Turkish I have no idea what some of those words really mean, or how they 're pronounced in Turkish, or even sometimes if they're actually Turkish at all. I know that, to my ears they sound not quite Greek, and I can't really figure out their meaning, so they're probably loan words and therefore most likely Turkish (although there have to be plenty that come from Albanian).

I quite like that btw, hope you don't want them all back now :P

Re: Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

#15

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

sedatk wrote: post #11
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to say that, to my ears, the Black Speech of the inscription on the One Ring sounds a lot like Turkish, but I'm not a Turkish speaker [1]. So I looked for a few examples of (modern) Turkish and I have to say that- maybe not, after all? Compare: Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. [2] With: Bütün insanlar hür, haysiyet ve haklar bakımından eşit doğarlar.…

Try an older Turkic text like Uyghur inscription: nama but : nama darm : namo [sang] altun önglüg y(a)ruk yaltrık -lığ kopda kôtrülmiş nom iligi atl(ı)ğ nom bitigde kılınç adartmakın ôçürmek atl(ı)ğ bişinç bölük üçü[nç tegz]

>> Try an older Turkic text like Uyghur inscription:

Aye, that sounds more Black Speech-y. What does it say, btw?

Re: Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

#16

Post by sedatk »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #15
sedatk wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try an older Turkic text like Uyghur inscription: nama but : nama darm : namo [sang] altun önglüg y(a)ruk yaltrık -lığ kopda kôtrülmiş nom iligi atl(ı)ğ nom bitigde kılınç adartmakın ôçürmek atl(ı)ğ bişinç bölük üçü[nç tegz]

>> Try an older Turkic text like Uyghur inscription: Aye, that sounds more Black Speech-y. What does it say, btw?

It's very different than modern Turkish I can only make out some words like "kılınç" (sword), "atlı" (horseman). Sounds like an ode to conquest.

Re: Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

#17

Post by adrianratnapala »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #12
adrianratnapala wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very old and branched off from the rest earlier than all the other recognized ones. Some say it is not even Indo-European. But that is a distinction without a difference, all sides seem to agree that Indo-European, including, Hittite, and Indo-European without it are both good "clades". So there is no disagreement about past linguistic events; the only disagreement is the judgement call about what to name thing…

Being very old makes it closer to Proto-Indo-European than any other known language. Proto-Indo-European is, obviously, older than Hittite.

True, age makes it closer to the common ancestor. Although as I said, it's a matter of taste whether to call that ancester PIE, or to reserve that name for some more recent language.

But if it branched off earlier, and developed on its own for longer, then we expect it to have diverged more than other languages that existed around the tail end of its existence.

So I think what linguists are saying is that ancient Greek, Persian, Sanskrit etc. are all more similar to each other than any of them is to Hittite. And the same goes for the reconstructions we can do for other Indo-European sub-families.

Re: Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

#18

Post by adrianratnapala »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #12
adrianratnapala wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very old and branched off from the rest earlier than all the other recognized ones. Some say it is not even Indo-European. But that is a distinction without a difference, all sides seem to agree that Indo-European, including, Hittite, and Indo-European without it are both good "clades". So there is no disagreement about past linguistic events; the only disagreement is the judgement call about what to name thing…

Being very old makes it closer to Proto-Indo-European than any other known language. Proto-Indo-European is, obviously, older than Hittite.

True, age makes it closer to the common ancestor. Although as I said, it's a matter of taste whether to call that ancester PIE, or to reserve that name for some more recent language.

But if it branched off earlier, and developed on its own for longer, then we expect it to have diverged more than other languages that existed around the tail end of its existence.

So I think what linguists are saying is that ancient Greek, Persian, Sanskrit etc. are all more similar to each other than any of them is to Hittite. And the same goes for the reconstructions we can do for other Indo-European sub-families.

Re: Uruk – Turkish as a Model for the Black Speech?

#19

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

sedatk wrote: post #16
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Try an older Turkic text like Uyghur inscription: Aye, that sounds more Black Speech-y. What does it say, btw?

It's very different than modern Turkish I can only make out some words like "kılınç" (sword), "atlı" (horseman). Sounds like an ode to conquest.

Very apt then!
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