What kind of girl do you think I am? • Hacker News Board

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#11

Post by derefr » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:08 AM UTC

cduan wrote: post #6

derefr wrote: post #2

A thought: if someone offered me a trillion dollars to kill a person, I would get trillion-dollar loan, invent brain-uploading and emulation technology with it, copy the person into the machine, and then kill them. To put that more simply: past a certain point, the idea of marginal value in a cost/benefit analysis breaks down, because the benefit "changes the game." (That is, creates a discontinuity in the valuation…

It's never clear to me why people answer thought experiments like this in this manner. The point of the question "would you kill someone for a trillion dollars" is to tease out an answer to an underlying philosophical question, such as, "is the act of killing as we know it a moral absolute wrong, or is it merely an act with great negative utility that can be compensated by sufficient positive utility?" Yes, there are…

And I've always ignored that sort of question—there's no such thing as morals or utility, really, only what animals are programmed to think in their animal brains. Robotic arms don't care when other robotic arms die—and neither do we. Paperclips don't care about increasing in number, even if someone is trying to make it so. What we have to ask is not "what does the universe say about right and wrong?" (because the answer is "nothing") but rather "what do our minds say about right and wrong?"—that is, "what is the human utility function?"

The problem with that, of course, is that even within our species, we have many different (and mutually-exclusive!) utility functions; sociopaths, for example, calculate theirs noticeably differently. So, it still ends up turned into a problem of cultural meta-ethics. That is, it's no longer a matter of "who do we shun and revile?" but "how do we get along?" or perhaps "do we want to get along?" (Which brings me to this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/)

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#12

Post by davidu » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:14 AM UTC

In business you are rarely forced to murder or whore yourself out. You are, however, constantly faced with changing your direction, compromising your vision or similar, all for some potential upside and downside. That's the nature of business, and trying to tie it to moral questions doesn't do justice to the line of reasoning one should employ.

Of course you should be moral, but most business questions aren't a question of morality, but of direction and the most appropriate path to achieve your objectives.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#13

Post by Whippet » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:14 AM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #4

derefr wrote: post #2

A thought: if someone offered me a trillion dollars to kill a person, I would get trillion-dollar loan, invent brain-uploading and emulation technology with it, copy the person into the machine, and then kill them. To put that more simply: past a certain point, the idea of marginal value in a cost/benefit analysis breaks down, because the benefit "changes the game." (That is, creates a discontinuity in the valuation…

Would that amount vary much if the person you were to kill was someone you cared about?

That gets to the crux of the matter doesn't it.

If your morals are based on principle, then no matter who the person was, your decision would remain the same.

I believe/hope that I am the type of person who would not take anothers' life no matter what the circumstances because I want to be a person of principle. If there were some situation where I did take a life, then I am not the principled person I think I am.

Take the example of Google and their motto,'Don't be Evil'. It was a nice bit of marketing, but when the value of doing business with a repressive government was high enough, they and other company's apparently had no problems working with said governments to continue the repression of it's citizens.

Now, you may say, Google has left that country. But, it was not due to the moral repugnance they felt about repressing the citizens, but the fact they were under attack by agents/citizens of said government and felt it was no longer in their interest 'financially' to stay.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#14

Post by derefr » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:24 AM UTC

btmorex wrote: post #10

ojbyrne wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given sufficient technology, what exactly is the difference?

Well, you're making decisions about someone else's mortality. Maybe they wouldn't want to live forever with everyone else that they knew dying? Maybe they would want to have a physical existence in the form of a human body. You're denying them that. There are a ton of similar questions.

I think the parent's phrase "sufficient technology" was meant to be interpreted as more than my "brain uploading and emulation"—i.e. an infinite Matrix landscape, synchronized with a doorway in the real world, that would gradually quantum-de-/re-materialize them as they progressed further into or out of it, so that, on the outside of the door, they were real people made of real matter, but ten or fifteen feet inside they were completely virtual. Assuming a wide-enough door, you could bring in your house, your car, whatever else you'd like, and bring them out again if you wanted to live a mortal life. (But, if you got your leg blown off in reality, you could always go in and, sufficiently digitized, apply a patch from a record of your previous body and walk back out, good as new.)

The problem with speculative fiction is that it needs a technological conflict. Worthwhile utopias don't do that.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#15

Post by btmorex » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:25 AM UTC

derefr wrote: post #11

cduan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's never clear to me why people answer thought experiments like this in this manner. The point of the question "would you kill someone for a trillion dollars" is to tease out an answer to an underlying philosophical question, such as, "is the act of killing as we know it a moral absolute wrong, or is it merely an act with great negative utility that can be compensated by sufficient positive utility?" Yes, there are…

And I've always ignored that sort of question—there's no such thing as morals or utility, really, only what animals are programmed to think in their animal brains. Robotic arms don't care when other robotic arms die—and neither do we. Paperclips don't care about increasing in number, even if someone is trying to make it so. What we have to ask is not "what does the universe say about right and wrong?" (because the an…

For an individual you can make those proclamations, but individuals don't operate in a vacuum. There is such a thing as morals and utility in a society. There is value in participating in a society. Therefor, there is value is having individual morals and calculating the utility of actions at least on a societal level.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#16

Post by nicolas_t » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:29 AM UTC

Whippet wrote: post #13

dkersten wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would that amount vary much if the person you were to kill was someone you cared about?

That gets to the crux of the matter doesn't it. If your morals are based on principle, then no matter who the person was, your decision would remain the same. I believe/hope that I am the type of person who would not take anothers' life no matter what the circumstances because I want to be a person of principle. If there were some situation where I did take a life, then I am not the principled person I think I am. Ta…

A bit out of topic, I think on the question of China many people have a black and white view of the situation...

In the case of google, they came to China but actually provided a less censored service than baidu (by writing in the search pages that some results were left out because of censoring thus attracting attention to it)... So in what way was their behavior evil?

Additionnaly, they never started any blogging service in China that would have put them in a situation where they had to give information to the government about political activists (unlike yahoo who gave such information)...

So, I don't think Google did anything evil in that case...

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#17

Post by derefr » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:29 AM UTC

btmorex wrote: post #15

derefr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I've always ignored that sort of question—there's no such thing as morals or utility, really, only what animals are programmed to think in their animal brains. Robotic arms don't care when other robotic arms die—and neither do we. Paperclips don't care about increasing in number, even if someone is trying to make it so. What we have to ask is not "what does the universe say about right and wrong?" (because the an…

For an individual you can make those proclamations, but individuals don't operate in a vacuum. There is such a thing as morals and utility in a society. There is value in participating in a society. Therefor, there is value is having individual morals and calculating the utility of actions at least on a societal level.

Right—that's, effectively, the difference between "cultural meta-ethics" and "moral relativism." What I'm saying is that, on an individual level, ethics is a problem that will be completely solved by neuropsychology: once we find out our particular utility function, we just have obey it optimally. Thus, Ethics as a field of endeavor should drop that kind of individual-level moral quandary, and focus on inter-societal quandaries, since that's what we'll really need to figure out—how to handle, and interact with, societies that have different utility functions than our own (including the ones we end up creating ourselves using genetic engineering, AI, and so forth.)

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#18

Post by btmorex » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:30 AM UTC

Whippet wrote: post #13

dkersten wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would that amount vary much if the person you were to kill was someone you cared about?

That gets to the crux of the matter doesn't it. If your morals are based on principle, then no matter who the person was, your decision would remain the same. I believe/hope that I am the type of person who would not take anothers' life no matter what the circumstances because I want to be a person of principle. If there were some situation where I did take a life, then I am not the principled person I think I am. Ta…

Well said. I always thought it was odd that people cheered Google when they pulled out of China even though they only did that because the Chinese government was hacking them (most notably not becase the Chinese government doesn't care about freedom of speech).

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#19

Post by nzmsv » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:35 AM UTC

btmorex wrote: post #15

derefr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I've always ignored that sort of question—there's no such thing as morals or utility, really, only what animals are programmed to think in their animal brains. Robotic arms don't care when other robotic arms die—and neither do we. Paperclips don't care about increasing in number, even if someone is trying to make it so. What we have to ask is not "what does the universe say about right and wrong?" (because the an…

For an individual you can make those proclamations, but individuals don't operate in a vacuum. There is such a thing as morals and utility in a society. There is value in participating in a society. Therefor, there is value is having individual morals and calculating the utility of actions at least on a societal level.

But the morals of a society are not constant. They are a function of the morals of the individuals living in a society. What was perfectly acceptable in the 12th century is barbaric now. In a century or two we will seem barbarians to our descendants. (And they will still be saying that their generation lost all morals and humans will soon die out.)

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#20

Post by btmorex » Sun, Jun 06, 2010, 5:38 AM UTC

nicolas_t wrote: post #16

Whippet wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That gets to the crux of the matter doesn't it. If your morals are based on principle, then no matter who the person was, your decision would remain the same. I believe/hope that I am the type of person who would not take anothers' life no matter what the circumstances because I want to be a person of principle. If there were some situation where I did take a life, then I am not the principled person I think I am. Ta…

A bit out of topic, I think on the question of China many people have a black and white view of the situation... In the case of google, they came to China but actually provided a less censored service than baidu (by writing in the search pages that some results were left out because of censoring thus attracting attention to it)... So in what way was their behavior evil? Additionnaly, they never started any blogging s…

They traded freedom of speech for ~1.3 billion people for a decidedly limited amount of money. To me that's a moral calculation and they chose money.