Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 359 posts

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#11

Post by notliketherest »

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it.

Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to modify or control the software. It's defined in our agreement. Now it seems to me that the companies that sell these tractors have decided to pursue a model by which their software is more or less SaSS (providing encrypted updates over the air). Why is it that these farmers believe they have a right to modify that software?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#12

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

notliketherest wrote: post #11

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it. Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to…

Because software as a service is the wrong model for farmers.

When equipment breaks in the middle of the field during harvest you do what needs to be done to fix it right then and there.

Edit: grammar

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#13

Post by Laforet »

itchyjunk wrote: post #6

"farmers could damage the machines, like bypassing pollution emissions controls to get more horsepower." Isn't this the problem with warranties? People could try to mod it, end up damaging it and try to get it replaced with warranties. I also don't fully understand this software. Is it just completely vendor locked? That sounds really unreasonable. It should allow for at least basic debugging and trouble shooting. Is…

It is usually 100% proprietary, think of iOS devices and game consoles

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#14

Post by notliketherest »

digitalzombie wrote: post #7
andrewchambers wrote: post #2

I don't like the idea that we have to pass laws to force companies to make a better product. Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this?

> Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this? You make it sounds so easy to start a tractor company.

The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. By your logic your statement could just have easily as been "to start a car company" or "to start a rocket company" or "to start a computer company". These are all examples of industries whose existing players were supplanted by a better idea with smart, passionate and dedicated entrepreneurs.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#15

Post by byebyetech »

notliketherest wrote: post #11

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it. Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to…

Except farmers or any customer who buys physical product are under no obligation to understand or believe there is Software that is running the Physical product they purchased. If i buy a physical product i should be able to control it completely, unless i am not buying a physical product but a service that happen to be physical, in which case seller must own all responsibility of its performance in the field.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#16

Post by andrepd »

notliketherest wrote: post #14
digitalzombie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this? You make it sounds so easy to start a tractor company.

The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. By your logic your statement could just have easily as been "to start a car company" or "to start a rocket company" or "to start a computer company". These are all examples of industries whose existing players were supplanted by a better idea with smart, passionate and dedicated entrepreneurs.

> The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out.

Just two words, capital costs, suffice to throw that entire line of thought to the ground.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#17

Post by save_ferris »

notliketherest wrote: post #11

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it. Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to…

Why is it that farmers don't have a right to modify and fix equipment that they purchased in 2017 because some software they didn't ask to be installed on their equipment prevents them from doing what they've been able to do for generations?

Up until a few years ago, farmers used to be able to buy farm equipment with the understanding that they could fix it whenever issues arose and didn't need a gatekeeper to come fix their hardware.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#18

Post by R_haterade »

itchyjunk wrote: post #6

"farmers could damage the machines, like bypassing pollution emissions controls to get more horsepower." Isn't this the problem with warranties? People could try to mod it, end up damaging it and try to get it replaced with warranties. I also don't fully understand this software. Is it just completely vendor locked? That sounds really unreasonable. It should allow for at least basic debugging and trouble shooting. Is…

Can confirm it's usually proprietary and locked. An old roommate is employed by an implement manufacturer--his sole job is traveling the western united states, making housecalls to upload newer versions of control software to equipment. They absolutely DO NOT trust the owners to do it themselves.

This has pretty frightening implications for the state of consumer goods, if industrial goods are already going this direction.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#19

Post by maxerickson »

save_ferris wrote: post #17
notliketherest wrote: post #11

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it. Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to…

Why is it that farmers don't have a right to modify and fix equipment that they purchased in 2017 because some software they didn't ask to be installed on their equipment prevents them from doing what they've been able to do for generations? Up until a few years ago, farmers used to be able to buy farm equipment with the understanding that they could fix it whenever issues arose and didn't need a gatekeeper to come f…

I suspect the main reason is that it makes economic sense to most farmers to keep buying the tractors, despite the gatekeeper.

Sucks, but there you go. If they managed (as a group) not to buy the tractors, the gatekeeper would go away.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#20

Post by cmurf »

Among the most successful cars were those with straightforward replacement parts, a defacto standard, and reasonably well documented and available maintenance manuals.

Tesla wants control over this, by literally renting the maintenance manual, and remotely disabling the car if repairs or parts aren't authorized. I don't expect the model 3 market will appreciate this business model. It will be a much more price sensitive market compared to the early models which has been relatively inelastic for repairs and resale.

Consider the x86 computer market, if every component had signed firmware, and the main system verified this signature in case of component replacement, and would fail to function at all if signature verification failed. What a pain...

Consider voting machines, proprietary hardware, expensive to design, maintain, audit, and go obsolete in as few as 1/2 dozen uses. Compare that to pencil and paper.

The older I get the more Darth Vader I become: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." (Let's say the Force is common sense in this metaphor.)

Post reply on HN