An off-grid social network • Hacker News Board

Re: An off-grid social network

#11

Post by staltz » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

wesleytodd wrote: post #7

Since the author didnt mention it, the original creator of the patchwork project is https://github.com/pfrazee When I used it, which admitedly was a long time ago now, the biggest setback was lack of cross device identities. So I ended up having two accounts with two feeds, `wesAtWork` and `wes`. Maybe they have solved this by now. ps. Does patchwork still have the little gif maker? Because that was a super fun featu…

Cross device identity is still an issue, but not a problem in the foundation. It's a matter of making client apps (like Patchwork) recognize a message of type "link this and that account together" and then your friend's app would automatically follow both accounts and render them as if they are the same thing. It'll be done eventually in Patchwork.

Re: An off-grid social network

#12

Post by j_s » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

dublinben wrote: post #5

j_s wrote: post #2

Right now Mastadon might as well be off-grid, unable to add additional accounts on the main server. Popularity has stunted it's growth! I am not sure how much thought has been given to the scalability of this solution, it sounds like it will benefit from most of the advantages offered by P2P in this department. Eventually something like this could organically grow into the "next Internet", in much the same way that t…

But you can register an account on any node[0], and communicate with anyone else on the entire network. That's the strength of federated protocols. [0] https://instances.mastodon.xyz/

My point was not what I could do but rather what I will do to try out some random new social network. Having now read that migrating identities is currently impractical I am even more certainly not going to take a chance on some other random server or even my own!

How well has federation worked out in practice (for other federated, social network related protocols) so far?

As far as I know, federation has only worked for ancient stuff that has nothing to do with social networks, like email and DNS. Basically, it is a part of core functionality and thus can't be co-opted by commercial interests (though GMail has made quite an inroad!).

Until it has proven itself, social federation doesn't really seem like a strength to me. It does sound good in theory! Other people with actual experience are adding their anecdotes which lines up with what I'm trying to say.

Re: An off-grid social network

#13

Post by wesleytodd » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

staltz wrote: post #11

wesleytodd wrote: post #7

Since the author didnt mention it, the original creator of the patchwork project is https://github.com/pfrazee When I used it, which admitedly was a long time ago now, the biggest setback was lack of cross device identities. So I ended up having two accounts with two feeds, `wesAtWork` and `wes`. Maybe they have solved this by now. ps. Does patchwork still have the little gif maker? Because that was a super fun featu…

Cross device identity is still an issue, but not a problem in the foundation. It's a matter of making client apps (like Patchwork) recognize a message of type "link this and that account together" and then your friend's app would automatically follow both accounts and render them as if they are the same thing. It'll be done eventually in Patchwork.

Yeah that is what they were talking about when I was following the project. Once that is done in patchwork, I might try using it again.

Re: An off-grid social network

#14

Post by staltz » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:19 PM UTC

wesleytodd wrote: post #13

staltz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cross device identity is still an issue, but not a problem in the foundation. It's a matter of making client apps (like Patchwork) recognize a message of type "link this and that account together" and then your friend's app would automatically follow both accounts and render them as if they are the same thing. It'll be done eventually in Patchwork.

Yeah that is what they were talking about when I was following the project. Once that is done in patchwork, I might try using it again.

It will be a must once mobile is launched, which I'm working on.

Re: An off-grid social network

#15

Post by chc4 » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:20 PM UTC

This sounds like what I wanted from GNU Social when I first joined over a year ago. GNU Social/Mastodon is a fun idea, but it falls apart when you realise that you still don't own your content and it's functionally impossible to switch nodes like it advertised, along with federation being a giant mess.

I tried to switch what server my account was on halfway through my GNU Social life, and you just can't; all your followers are on the old server, all your tweets, and there is no way to say "I'm still the same person". I didnt realise I wanted cryptographic identity and accounts until I tried to actually use the alternative.

That's also part of the interest I have in something like Urbit, which has an identity system centered on public keys forming a web of trust, which also lets you have a reputation system and ban spammers which you can't do easily with a pure DHT.

Re: An off-grid social network

#16

Post by rocky1138 » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

chc4 wrote: post #15

This sounds like what I wanted from GNU Social when I first joined over a year ago. GNU Social/Mastodon is a fun idea, but it falls apart when you realise that you still don't own your content and it's functionally impossible to switch nodes like it advertised, along with federation being a giant mess. I tried to switch what server my account was on halfway through my GNU Social life, and you just can't; all your fol…

Not being able to switch nodes pushes you to try and host your own instead. That's what I've done. IMO we should instead be looking at packaging a self-hosted version into a native Windows and Mac app. Run it in the background and everything's done.

Re: An off-grid social network

#17

Post by freedaemon » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

> For instance, unique usernames are impossible without a centralized username registry.

This is Zooko's triangle and was squared by blockchains. Namecoin (2011), BNS (the Blockstack Name System, 2014), and now a bunch of other fully-decentralized naming systems can give you unique usernames. Recently, Ethereum tried launching ENS and ran into some security issues and will likely re-launch soon.

Re: An off-grid social network

#18

Post by s_kilk » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

rocky1138 wrote: post #16

chc4 wrote: post #15

This sounds like what I wanted from GNU Social when I first joined over a year ago. GNU Social/Mastodon is a fun idea, but it falls apart when you realise that you still don't own your content and it's functionally impossible to switch nodes like it advertised, along with federation being a giant mess. I tried to switch what server my account was on halfway through my GNU Social life, and you just can't; all your fol…

Not being able to switch nodes pushes you to try and host your own instead. That's what I've done. IMO we should instead be looking at packaging a self-hosted version into a native Windows and Mac app. Run it in the background and everything's done.

And then your laptop gets stolen and everything's gone.

Re: An off-grid social network

#19

Post by ytjohn » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #4

Yes, this guy gets it. This community gets it. Not everything needs a global singleton like a blockchain or DHT or a DNS system. Bitcoin needs this because of the double-spend problem. But private chats and other such activities don't. I have been working on this problem since 2011. I can tell you that peer-to-peer is fine for asynchronous feeds that form tree based activities, which is quite a lot of things. But eve…

I have been researching along these same lines for a while now as well, ad-hoc/mesh network messaging. My use case would be an amateur radio mesh network. For a while, I was investigating running matrix.org servers on raspberry pis, connected to a mesh network without internet. And that does work, the closest I've come to a great solution.

But I had never heard of scuttlebut until now. This looks even more ideal. In amateur radio, everyone self identifies with their call sign, this follows the same model.

For amateur radio, there is a restriction against encryption (intent to obscure or hide the message), but the public messages would be fine. Private messages (being encrypted for only those the right keys) might be a legal issue, so for a legit amateur radio deployment, the client would have to disable that (or at least operators would have to be educated that private messages may violate fcc rules).

Re: An off-grid social network

#20

Post by staltz » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

freedaemon wrote: post #17

> For instance, unique usernames are impossible without a centralized username registry. This is Zooko's triangle and was squared by blockchains. Namecoin (2011), BNS (the Blockstack Name System, 2014), and now a bunch of other fully-decentralized naming systems can give you unique usernames. Recently, Ethereum tried launching ENS and ran into some security issues and will likely re-launch soon.

That's only possible with what SSB Handbook calls a "global singleton". That's what I meant with "centralized username registry", which SSB does not have.