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The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

8020japanese.com

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Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#11

Post by kalleboo »

tempodox wrote: post #7

I love how precise and detailed this article is written. If only more documentation were like this. It was always my assumption that grammar is the most important thing to learn about a language. Vocabulary accumulates almost automatically over time, with practise (and a dictionary). Interesting to see how that holds in this case.

> It was always my assumption that grammar is the most important thing to learn about a language

I think it depends on what your goals are. If you just want to communicate, vocabulary is the most important thing to get started, since even with poor grammar people can infer what you mean (gestures help too!). I've seen too many people here in Japan who have crammed English grammar all their school years but are paralyzed when trying to communicate because they're just focused on getting the grammar right.

Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#12

Post by iamnotlarry »

Remember those English diagramming classes everyone hated? I'm not very familiar with the education system in Japan, but I doubt they have diagramming classes. In Japanese, the diagramming is built into the language. You tag the subject, the direct object, the indirect object, etc. Everything gets markup.

Which part of the sentence is the direct object? Uh... the part with the direct object tag hanging off it? Correct!

Have you ever heard a programming language described as "designed for teaching"? Japanese is a language designed to be as simple as possible to learn.

Coming from English, the idea that a natural language could actually be designed was a shock to me. I thought they just evolved sloppily and haphazardly. Well, Japanese is proof that it doesn't have to be that way. Clear rules and not too many of them. No exceptions. Rigidly consistent. It's like a language created in a lab that never got dirtied up by real world usage. Except, oh wait, it's a real language used by millions of people every day.

Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#13

Post by xelxebar »

myrandomcomment wrote: post #2

So I am sitting in Ebisu in Tokyo right now. I spend about 3-4 months a year here and have for about 8 years. My understanding of spoken Japanese is pretty decent. However it is by pure memorization over time. This just sorted a whole bunch of things out in my head as to the why. Very good stuff. Thank you.

Oh cool. I'm in Koenji.

If you would like more of this kind of thing, I highly recommend Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Grammar. It's a lot like OP's article, but much more thorough, organized by topic, and provides auxillary resources so you can dig in as much as you please.

Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#14

Post by shiro »

dasfasf wrote: post #9

A interesting property of Japanese is that a sentence is also a subordinate clause. For example Tarou wa Noriko wo toshokan de mimashita. (Tarou saw Noriko at the library.) Tarou wa Noriko wo mimashita. (Tarou saw Noriko.) Tarou wa Noriko wo mimashita toshokan (The library where Tarou saw Noriko) Generally " " means "the such that is true for some choice of ".

Your third example isn't valid. It needs a bit of tweak.

Tarou ga Noriko wo mita toshokan

The particle "ga" and "wa" both introduce a topic. But in a phrase to explain a noun, we use "ga" exclusively. Your main point still holds, in a sense that "Tarou ga Noriko wo mita" is a valid sentence. But to be precise, "mita" in those two sentences are different conjugated forms; it just happens that two conjugated forms are the same in the verb "miru" (to see).

Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#15

Post by panorama »

Beginner question: In casual, spoken Japanese, I've been taught that I can drop the particles (including pronouns). Hence "watashi wa tabemasu" can be colloquially shortened to "tabemasu".

Thanks to this article, I've come to understand particles much better and why they're important, but does it change in casual spoken Japanese? Are some particles okay to drop whereas others are kept? Thanks in advance.

Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#16

Post by xelxebar »

tempodox wrote: post #7

I love how precise and detailed this article is written. If only more documentation were like this. It was always my assumption that grammar is the most important thing to learn about a language. Vocabulary accumulates almost automatically over time, with practise (and a dictionary). Interesting to see how that holds in this case.

Just to play the Negative Nelly role a bit, while the main thesis is on point, the example sentences I find to be somewhat unrealistic and misleading.

I have ideas for how to improve things and wouldn't mind brainstorming things together with the author of that's something they're interested in.

Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#17

Post by iamnotlarry »

kalleboo wrote: post #11
tempodox wrote: post #7

I love how precise and detailed this article is written. If only more documentation were like this. It was always my assumption that grammar is the most important thing to learn about a language. Vocabulary accumulates almost automatically over time, with practise (and a dictionary). Interesting to see how that holds in this case.

> It was always my assumption that grammar is the most important thing to learn about a language I think it depends on what your goals are. If you just want to communicate, vocabulary is the most important thing to get started, since even with poor grammar people can infer what you mean (gestures help too!). I've seen too many people here in Japan who have crammed English grammar all their school years but are paraly…

I think you should learn a handful of grammar rules right up front.

Obviously, * Desu/deshita/de arimasen/de arimasen deshita * Masu/masen/mashita/masen deshita

Then add a few more * if * while * want to * passive * honorific * etc.

You can learn one a week or one a month. There aren't very many to learn. But having just four or five up your sleeve (in addition to verb conjugation) can really improve your comfort.

Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#18

Post by ehsquared »

Filipino is really similar in terms of the use of particles/markers! For example, to say: "The cat is eating the fish", we say: "Kumakain ng isda ang pusa". The verb (is eating, kumakain) always comes first. The subject (cat, pusa) is identified by the "ang" marker, while the object (fish, isda) is identified by the "ng" marker. We could also say "Kumakain ang pusa ng isda", although that's rarely used.

The "-um-" affix in "kumakain" makes the verb active ("is eating"). If we instead used the "-in-" affix (as in "kinakain"), it would make the verb passive ("is being eaten by"). So we could alternatively say: "Kinakain ng pusa ang isda" to mean: "The fish is being eaten by the cat".

Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#19

Post by whym »

This article does a great job at presenting a gist of the Japanese sentence structure. Nevertheless, it makes me want to point out that it's not the whole story. If you take into account topics such as modality and conjugation, some of the information you add to a verb is placed after the verb and cannot be freely reordered.

Japanese verbs are "greater" than English verbs in the sense that you conjugate/suffixate a verb to express negation, conjunctions, conditional forms etc, making it longer and longer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_verb_conjugation

In contrast, English has a relatively simple set of inflections of verbs. Many of those Japanese verb forms and suffixated long verbs are translated into multi-word phrases. Compare:

Anata wa kyou nemuru. (You sleep today.) -- verb is in normal form ("nemuru")

Anata wa kinou nemurenakatta. (You were not able to sleep yesterday.) -- verb is in continuative form ("nemuru"→"nemu") + possibility suffix ("reru"→"re") + negation suffix ("nai"→"naka") + past suffix ("ta"→"tta")

Re: The Logic Behind Japanese Sentence Structure

#20

Post by kalleboo »

iamnotlarry wrote: post #17
kalleboo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was always my assumption that grammar is the most important thing to learn about a language I think it depends on what your goals are. If you just want to communicate, vocabulary is the most important thing to get started, since even with poor grammar people can infer what you mean (gestures help too!). I've seen too many people here in Japan who have crammed English grammar all their school years but are paraly…

I think you should learn a handful of grammar rules right up front. Obviously, * Desu/deshita/de arimasen/de arimasen deshita * Masu/masen/mashita/masen deshita Then add a few more * if * while * want to * passive * honorific * etc. You can learn one a week or one a month. There aren't very many to learn. But having just four or five up your sleeve (in addition to verb conjugation) can really improve your comfort.

Absolutely! You're not going to get anywhere in any language with only either grammar or vocabulary.
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