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Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

theintercept.com

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Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#11

Post by JumpCrisscross »

exabrial wrote: post #2

My opinion on hn was unpopular when I spoke out against Apple during the San Bernardino affair, because the FBI seemed to have the proper DOJ signoff and I think the motivation was obvious. However this is unacceptable. We are a society of laws, and one of them is due process. Spying likely started during the Bush years, and Obama somehow escaped scrutiny for continuing the program (even with Snowden leaks). Hopefull…

> the FBI seemed to have the proper DOJ signoff [in San Bernardino]

Due process means both sides get to argue their cases in front of a court. Apple chose to do that [1]. Presumably, the FBI figured it would lose and so dropped the case [2]. Apple contesting an executive branch order in a court is different from directors and employees at the NSA deciding they can act in defiance of our courts and laws.

[1] https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/18/technology/apple-timot...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/28/apple-fbi...

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#12

Post by uptown »

exabrial wrote: post #2

My opinion on hn was unpopular when I spoke out against Apple during the San Bernardino affair, because the FBI seemed to have the proper DOJ signoff and I think the motivation was obvious. However this is unacceptable. We are a society of laws, and one of them is due process. Spying likely started during the Bush years, and Obama somehow escaped scrutiny for continuing the program (even with Snowden leaks). Hopefull…

"Hopefully it finally gets shut down during the Trump administration, even if merely because the media seems far less tolerant of his transgressions."

I haven't seen any indication that either party is looking to end these practices. It's hard to shut down "big brother" when it's your turn to play big brother. Furthermore, this doesn't exactly seem the the administration that's likely to dial-back intrusion into people's personal lives:

"U.S. House bill threatens employees with fines if they refuse to undergo genetic testing"

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2017/03/13/gene...

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#13

Post by willvarfar »

mysterypie wrote: post #6
willvarfar wrote: post #4

Why aren't politicians and their staff using end-to-end encrypted VOIP?

The same reason you aren't. The same reason PGP has been around for 25 years and only a miniscule fraction of people ever encrypt their email. I.e., it's because none of this privacy technology is built-in as the default into our communications infrastructure. Therefore, for the average person (and even for privacy-conscious techies), it is inconvenient and difficult, and you have to convince the party you're talking…

Politicians and their staff should not be ignorant; they ought be very acutely aware of the risks and that they are a target, and ought be highly motivated to fix this for themselves by securing their own systems.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#14

Post by andy_ppp »

1001101 wrote: post #7

It's interesting that the article mentions then Sen. Obama's change of heart re: the FISA Amendments Act - saying he would filibuster it and then voting for it. I wonder what led to his change of heart. I haven't heard that explained.

Probably that he was running for president and wanted to appear on the side of the security services? Then when in office it clearly must be a useful tool to start build profiles of everyone and be able to mine their activities.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#15

Post by joshontheweb »

mgamache wrote: post #5

The problem with the press coverage of this topic is a lack of personalization. What does the government know about me and why is that important? I think most US citizens would be shocked to learn that most of our personal information is accessible without a warrant. (phone records / bank account / email / web history / phone location data / Car location / Purchase history / Facebook etc....). Also, how much the gove…

Unfortunately I have found that most people aren't shocked when I explain this to them. Most commonly they just say That their life is boring and they've got nothing to hide. Additionally they think that it may be worth the invasion if we can catch the 'bad guys'. I'm not sure what would need to happen to change this sentiment on a large enough scale to get people motivated into political action.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#16

Post by dmix »

mysterypie wrote: post #6
willvarfar wrote: post #4

Why aren't politicians and their staff using end-to-end encrypted VOIP?

The same reason you aren't. The same reason PGP has been around for 25 years and only a miniscule fraction of people ever encrypt their email. I.e., it's because none of this privacy technology is built-in as the default into our communications infrastructure. Therefore, for the average person (and even for privacy-conscious techies), it is inconvenient and difficult, and you have to convince the party you're talking…

Shifting people onto E2E encrypted VOIP as we move off analog phone lines would be far easier than moving peoples existing email to PGP. Much like how it was pretty seemless for WhatsApp to turn it on.

Email is a special case because of the various semantics like searching and federated clients.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#17

Post by snerbles »

mgamache wrote: post #5

The problem with the press coverage of this topic is a lack of personalization. What does the government know about me and why is that important? I think most US citizens would be shocked to learn that most of our personal information is accessible without a warrant. (phone records / bank account / email / web history / phone location data / Car location / Purchase history / Facebook etc....). Also, how much the gove…

It would have to be revealed in a fashion genuinely disruptive to the public. The average Joe Sixpack may grumble about the occasional privacy headline, but he won't feel the impact until it dwarfs our daily distractions.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#18

Post by willstrafach »

Darthy wrote: post #8

Of course the other 7.2 billion people in the world are also routinely monitored, but since this is an action on foreign territory, these 7.2 billion people have no recourse against this practice.

I hear this brought up a lot but do not see how it would be an issue. This is part of the job of an intelligence agency.

Something often ignored: The intelligence agencies of other countries are likely to be doing the same thing. It has already been shown that BND and GCHQ engage in similar behavior with regards to upstream and satellite signals interception, but it seems foolish to assume that other countries are not engaging in this type of intelligence collection.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#19

Post by lordnacho »

I have a question about this whole government intrusion thing. Perhaps a lawyer can explain:

Suppose the government gets a warrant to wiretap some guy. He happens to get a call from his lawyer, and the government overhears that he's committed some crime.

Now there's an attorney/client privilege preventing you from directly producing the tape (is there?) so you can't just do that. But the fact that you've heard this means as an investigator you'll probably pursue this guy much more aggressively, and perhaps gather other evidence rather than give up.

How does that work?

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#20

Post by ealexhudson »

lordnacho wrote: post #19

I have a question about this whole government intrusion thing. Perhaps a lawyer can explain: Suppose the government gets a warrant to wiretap some guy. He happens to get a call from his lawyer, and the government overhears that he's committed some crime. Now there's an attorney/client privilege preventing you from directly producing the tape (is there?) so you can't just do that. But the fact that you've heard this m…

If you gather other evidence, it's called "parallel construction" and it's A Thing. It doesn't just apply to wire-taps; all sorts of evidence would be inadmissible, but of course once investigators know something there are often other ways of figuring out a means to get evidence (or, at least, getting to the point you can justify a warrant).
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