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NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

arstechnica.com

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Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#11
post #7

One thing I don't quite get is their claim that the rocket would need "just some solar panels" instead of a fuel tank when in the paragraph before that they talk about exhausting argon-based plasma. If there is a propellant, you'd need to store that somewhere first, right? Does each particle of the propellant exit the rocket with much higher energy? Or can Argon be stored in a much denser form than other fuels?

Yes, each particle of the propellant exits the rocket with much higher energy. Since you can only get so much energy from chemical reactions, to get to these higher exit velocities the energy from the solar panels is used. You use a higher ratio of energy to propellant mass than chemical fuels use.

I was at a demo for a plasma engine similar to VASIMR back in the 90's at a national lab. It was a long machine running the length of a large room. There was a window in the side where you could see the plasma. When we showed up there was a faint pinkish plasma barely visible in the window. The guy who was showing us around told us they were just getting ready for the demo and we should wait a few minutes. After a few minutes of the plasma being off, one of the engineers gave a thumbs up. Our guide pulled us close to the window and said "Watch this!". Nothing happened. "One more second!", he said. Then we smelled burning electronics. "Shit!", he said and ran towards the power supplies.

My co-founder and I looked at each other and smiled, because it was so nice to be on the other side of that situation. I knew exactly how the guys felt. Usually we were the ones trying to demo an experiment that sort-of, kind-of worked.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#12
post #8
post #7

One thing I don't quite get is their claim that the rocket would need "just some solar panels" instead of a fuel tank when in the paragraph before that they talk about exhausting argon-based plasma. If there is a propellant, you'd need to store that somewhere first, right? Does each particle of the propellant exit the rocket with much higher energy? Or can Argon be stored in a much denser form than other fuels?

Specific impulse or Isp is what you want. And yes, ion thrust takes a lot less propellant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster However, this is not really 'new' tech. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_1 used an early version in 1998.

(IAN a physics major) But to elaborate per my understanding, there are 2 important variables you're playing with in rocket engines:

- Specific impulse / Isp (aka how much thrust you get for a given amount of propellant)

- Maximum Thrust

Due to the rocket equation [1], adding more propellant increases the weight of your vehicle, making it harder to move, requiring more propellant, etc etc. So being efficient with your propellant is very good.

That said, given a requirement against a gravity well (e.g. a planet), there's usually a minimum total thrust required for a given maneuver to be successful (low total thrust = maneuver takes longer = more time for gravity to pull you = more propellant required).

Thus far, we generally have two types of engines. (1) High maximum thrust, lower Isp (chemical rockets) & (2) high Isp, low maximum thrust (ion/electric engines). The two are currently very far apart [2, sort by Specific Impulse decreasing, then look at the Thrust column].

As examples (Isp Vacuum / Thrust Vacuum): NEXT ion thruster 4,100s/0.236N @ 6.9 kW, VASIMR 5,000s/5.7N @ 200 kW, Space Shuttle SRBs 268s/14MN.

The hope with VASIMR is that it provides a middle ground where high Isp is available with enough total thrust to actually be useful for something other than slow orbital adjustments. An example of "something useful" would generally be anything beyond Earth orbit that covers large distances, e.g. flying to Mars.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_orbital_rocket_e...

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric propulsion has existed and been flown for decades. Many commercial satellites use it for station keeping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spacecraft_with_electr...

The difference is this one can scale up the power/efficiency ratio on demand.

There's basically four inputs to electric propulsion: power source mass efficiency (W/kg), required delta vee (m/s), required acceleration (m/s/s), and exhaust velocity (m/s). (Well there's efficiency too.)

You can approximately minimize total mass with this info. Turns out, your spacecraft will in total be heavier, if you go to higher exhaust velocities. You save on propellant but you need bigger solar arrays. Not worth it.

All this talk about "Mars in x days" assumes a fantastic power plant. It's a little bit like you're starting a car company and showing wheels and saying "my car company enables range and acceleration three times that of Tesla" while you don't have any kind of battery or motor yet.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#14

FTA: "And at a time when the national discourse assails the value of Spanish-speaking immigrants..." What a load. Aside from the repellent need by the author to inject politics into a science story, it's flat-out wrong : the rancor isn't over people who (like Chang-Díaz) pursue legal citizenship or legal residency, nor is it over people who speak a particular language simply on the basis of that language.

With respect, I disagree. Derogatory terms like "anchor babies" describe people who are, after all, US citizens of immigrant descent. Similarly, the rancor directed at the judge in the Trump university case had nothing to do with legal citizenship and everything to do with Hispanic ancestry. And obviously refugees are legal immigrants granted that status by the US State Department. But this doesn't prevent them from being the subjects of a great deal of both fear and fury.

These controversies, taken individually, could be viewed as legitimate questions about the ethical grounds for birthright citizenship, or the appropriate scope for recusal, or the balance between mercy and safety. But in aggregate it's clear they aren't any of those things. They're expressions of a xenophobic insistence that immigrants, particularly non-white immigrants, are "the other". That they are cheaters, that they can't be trusted, that they are /dangerous/. That's xenophobia and racism, and it has nothing to do with the rule of law.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#15
post #7

One thing I don't quite get is their claim that the rocket would need "just some solar panels" instead of a fuel tank when in the paragraph before that they talk about exhausting argon-based plasma. If there is a propellant, you'd need to store that somewhere first, right? Does each particle of the propellant exit the rocket with much higher energy? Or can Argon be stored in a much denser form than other fuels?

The difference is 'momentum gained per gram of propellant'.

Traditional engines burn fuel, and the expanding, hot fuel pushes itself out the back of the engine at high speed, pushing the rest of the spacecraft forward. The fuel containing the energy is also the propellant.

Ion engines are the opposite in almost every way. You spend a lot of electrical energy (solar, nuclear, whatever) speeding up a tiny amount of propellant (which is usually something non-reactive like argon). You shoot a little bit of fuel at insanely high speeds out of the engine, and it pushes the spacecraft forward a little bit- so you do it for a very long time.

Yes, ion engines still need propellant, but they need a whole lot less of it.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#16
post #7

One thing I don't quite get is their claim that the rocket would need "just some solar panels" instead of a fuel tank when in the paragraph before that they talk about exhausting argon-based plasma. If there is a propellant, you'd need to store that somewhere first, right? Does each particle of the propellant exit the rocket with much higher energy? Or can Argon be stored in a much denser form than other fuels?

Yes, each particle of the propellant exits the rocket with much higher energy. Since you can only get so much energy from chemical reactions, to get to these higher exit velocities the energy from the solar panels is used. You use a higher ratio of energy to propellant mass than chemical fuels use. I was at a demo for a plasma engine similar to VASIMR back in the 90's at a national lab. It was a long machine running…

Side note: hats off to anyone working with high energy plasma.

If I make a mistake in my code, it generally doesn't escape magnetic confinement and instantly vaporize other portions of my system with the fury of the sun.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#17
post #8
post #7

One thing I don't quite get is their claim that the rocket would need "just some solar panels" instead of a fuel tank when in the paragraph before that they talk about exhausting argon-based plasma. If there is a propellant, you'd need to store that somewhere first, right? Does each particle of the propellant exit the rocket with much higher energy? Or can Argon be stored in a much denser form than other fuels?

Specific impulse or Isp is what you want. And yes, ion thrust takes a lot less propellant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster However, this is not really 'new' tech. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_1 used an early version in 1998.

> However, this is not really 'new' tech. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_1 used an early version in 1998.

As discussed in the article, this is a very different kind of ion thruster. That category is quite large. In particular, I believe essentially all ion thrusters flown have been electrostatic ion thrusters, including both Deep Space 1 and the Hall thrusters discussed in the article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster#Electrostatic_ion...

In contrast, the VASIMR engine discussed in the article is an electromagnetic ion thruster

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster#Electromagnetic_t...

(Apologies if you didn't intend to suggest the tech isn't that new, and just meant that the low-propellant-usage part isn't that new.)

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric propulsion has existed and been flown for decades. Many commercial satellites use it for station keeping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spacecraft_with_electr...

The difference is this one can scale up the power/efficiency ratio on demand.

I guess you mean the power-to-thrust ratio, which indeed scales roughly with the specific impulse.

The thing is, pretty much every plasma propulsion device has the theoretical ability to throttle specific impulse. Gridded ion engines and Hall thrusters can for instance directly throttle specific impulse (Isp) by varying the discharge voltage. Other plasma thrusters can do this by other means like increasing RF heating, varying the magnetic field, etc.

Unfortunately, in real life the actual usable range of Isp always ends up much narrower that initially predicted because of a variety of factors that are difficult to predict theoretically (erosion and ionization efficiency in particular).

AFAIK, due to the shear size and complexity of Vasimr, its thrust has never been directly measured and we know very little about its actual performance. I would therefore wait a little and discard sensationalist articles until real, extensive testing has taken place.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#20
post #15
post #7

One thing I don't quite get is their claim that the rocket would need "just some solar panels" instead of a fuel tank when in the paragraph before that they talk about exhausting argon-based plasma. If there is a propellant, you'd need to store that somewhere first, right? Does each particle of the propellant exit the rocket with much higher energy? Or can Argon be stored in a much denser form than other fuels?

The difference is 'momentum gained per gram of propellant'. Traditional engines burn fuel, and the expanding, hot fuel pushes itself out the back of the engine at high speed, pushing the rest of the spacecraft forward. The fuel containing the energy is also the propellant. Ion engines are the opposite in almost every way. You spend a lot of electrical energy (solar, nuclear, whatever) speeding up a tiny amount of pro…

Thanks to you and the others for clarifying. For some reason it didn't occur to me they were talking about an ion engine. I've heard of them and their slow-but-steady acceleration characteristics before but never actually knew how they work (and for some reason didn't quite make the connection).
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