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During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#11

Post by Nadya »

daemonk wrote: post #7

Seems like a lot of these historical incidents are being brought up recently. They are certainly interesting and perhaps show that humanity as a whole tend to repeat the same actions. But is it also the goal to attempt to justify the current immigration ban by citing history? Conway brought up the Obama's tightening of the Iraqi immigration during his term. Does that somehow justify Trump's immigration ban? I guess y…

>But is it also the goal to attempt to justify the current immigration ban by citing history?

I find it interesting how we see this kind of "news" (reports?) in opposite ways.

I see it as a message of "We've done this before - and it was wrong then too! We often talked about how bad and stupid it was we did it at all, yet we're coming full circle."

Because I see the media as being largely left-biased, I see these reports as an attempt to remind or educate people on our history. Not supportive of the actions but critical of them. Meanwhile, I see right-leaning media as being more supportive of the actions and less critical (because they largely are...)

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#12

Post by CaptSpify »

falsestprophet wrote: post #4
minikites wrote: post #2

It's a shame so many people can't function without being afraid/angry at a dehumanized "other". Sometimes it's outright malice (Syrian refugees today), sometimes it's softer but just as harmful ("the Japanese are going to take over the world!!" in the 1980s) and sometimes it's from within (Japanese and Italians in WWII, the entire history of black citizens in the USA). And when a new "enemy" arrives that's more appea…

It is important to understand the United States is leading a bombing campaign that has recently killed over 50,000 people in Syria and Iraq. Killing people on a vast scale from countries and also accepting immigrants (including military age males) from the same country at the same time is more complicated than #WereACountryOfImmigrants.

Yeah, why should we help clean up any of the mess that we've been causing? /sarcasm

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#13

Post by LeifCarrotson »

daemonk wrote: post #7

Seems like a lot of these historical incidents are being brought up recently. They are certainly interesting and perhaps show that humanity as a whole tend to repeat the same actions. But is it also the goal to attempt to justify the current immigration ban by citing history? Conway brought up the Obama's tightening of the Iraqi immigration during his term. Does that somehow justify Trump's immigration ban? I guess y…

> But is it also the goal to attempt to justify the current immigration ban by citing history?

No, none of the articles I've read describe the past historical incidents in a positive light. They're attempting to compare modern actions (discriminating against Muslims) with past actions (discriminating against Italians, or Japanese, or women, or African-Americans). Similar comparisons are made between the Prohibition (of alcohol) and the War on Drugs.

The historical incidents are widely and easily recognized to be wrong because we're emotionally distant from them. People should be able to learn from history and realize that analogous actions today are similarly wrong.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#14

Post by ardit33 »

daemonk wrote: post #7

Seems like a lot of these historical incidents are being brought up recently. They are certainly interesting and perhaps show that humanity as a whole tend to repeat the same actions. But is it also the goal to attempt to justify the current immigration ban by citing history? Conway brought up the Obama's tightening of the Iraqi immigration during his term. Does that somehow justify Trump's immigration ban? I guess y…

"Conway brought up the Obama's tightening of the Iraqi immigration during his term. Does that somehow justify Trump's immigration ban?

-- No it doesn't What Trump did is not just stop immigration, but completely stop even people with valid visas, and green cards (Permanent Residents) from even entering. This is unheard off. Some of them were "detained", put with handcuffed for over 20 hrs.

In the midst of it there were a 5 yo, grandmas, and folks that worked for the US government, and served this country.

Completely different than just slowing down/stopping refugees coming in. The executive order was cruel and poorly implemented, (and parts of it most likely illegal).

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#15

Post by iambateman »

I love this article, because we have to remind people that Americans have been afraid of Italians and Germans and Swedes and Jews and the Japanese and Muslims and the Chinese and DEFINITELY the Irish at one time or another.

Established groups feared new groups. But in the end, these people generally brought new innovations and economic growth and interesting new foods.

They mashed new cultures with old - not without pain - and eventually gave us General Tso's Chicken.

In other words, it's gonna be alright.

^^ this is what I tell people who support Muslim bans. I'm not sure if it helps them, but it helps me.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#16

Post by dominotw »

ardit33 wrote: post #14
daemonk wrote: post #7

Seems like a lot of these historical incidents are being brought up recently. They are certainly interesting and perhaps show that humanity as a whole tend to repeat the same actions. But is it also the goal to attempt to justify the current immigration ban by citing history? Conway brought up the Obama's tightening of the Iraqi immigration during his term. Does that somehow justify Trump's immigration ban? I guess y…

"Conway brought up the Obama's tightening of the Iraqi immigration during his term. Does that somehow justify Trump's immigration ban? -- No it doesn't What Trump did is not just stop immigration, but completely stop even people with valid visas, and green cards (Permanent Residents) from even entering. This is unheard off. Some of them were "detained", put with handcuffed for over 20 hrs. In the midst of it there we…

>Some of them were "detained", put with handcuffed for over 20 hrs.

I have travel coming up in two months, this makes me nervous.

Do you have a source for this by any chance?

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#17

Post by joshuaheard »

I researched this some after Trump's executive order, and it is interesting because most people know about the Japanese internment because it was the largest, but we also interned Italians and Germans. These three groups were also prohibited from buying certain items that could potentially be used in sabotage.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#18

Post by mikeash »

daemonk wrote: post #7

Seems like a lot of these historical incidents are being brought up recently. They are certainly interesting and perhaps show that humanity as a whole tend to repeat the same actions. But is it also the goal to attempt to justify the current immigration ban by citing history? Conway brought up the Obama's tightening of the Iraqi immigration during his term. Does that somehow justify Trump's immigration ban? I guess y…

I don't think these WWII-era actions are being brought up to justify anything. It's pretty widely agreed that Japanese internment was really bad, for example, and I think other stuff from that time tends to be seen is the same light.

I have seen a lot of cries of hypocrisy, involving Obama's Iraq action you mention, and other things like drone strikes. It's a bit silly, since Obama did get a lot of criticism for this stuff, so the only argument for hypocrisy is that he should have had more. It's not something where a group was totally for X in one case, and totally against it in another case.

Anyway, if someone thinks this stuff is good, they should be able to make the case for it directly. They especially shouldn't be leaning on Obama's actions to justify it when their candidate's platform largely boiled down to "I am the opposite of Obama."

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#19

Post by JackFr »

> By the 1920s, pseudo-scientists and polemicists in the 1920s popularized the notion that Italians were a separate race from Anglo-Americans.

These scientists were 'pseudo' only in retrospect. It literally took a world war to knock eugenicists out of the mainstream.

As we pat ourselves on the back today for being so rational and enlightened, we would do well to remember episodes like that and restore some sense of humility. The progressives of that era considered themselves no less enlightened and rational than we do ourselves.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#20

Post by knz »

falsestprophet wrote: post #4
minikites wrote: post #2

It's a shame so many people can't function without being afraid/angry at a dehumanized "other". Sometimes it's outright malice (Syrian refugees today), sometimes it's softer but just as harmful ("the Japanese are going to take over the world!!" in the 1980s) and sometimes it's from within (Japanese and Italians in WWII, the entire history of black citizens in the USA). And when a new "enemy" arrives that's more appea…

It is important to understand the United States is leading a bombing campaign that has recently killed over 50,000 people in Syria and Iraq. Killing people on a vast scale from countries and also accepting immigrants (including military age males) from the same country at the same time is more complicated than #WereACountryOfImmigrants.

> United States is leading a bombing campaign that has recently killed over 50,000 people in Syria and Iraq

Isn't it a bit disingenuous to omit the fact that both Iraq and Syria have areas experiencing active warfare? The bombing campaign is not occurring in a vacuum, is targeted at people engaged in warfare against us or our allies, and those conflicts have killed far more people than just the bombing campaign - including via the use of chemical weapons.

I'm not trying to justify civilian casualties, the ongoing drone attacks on multiple continents, or even answer whether we should be involved in these conflicts - I just think the situation is more nuanced than "the US has bombed/killed 50,000 people in Syria and Iraq".

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