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The Closing of America

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Re: The Closing of America

#11

Post by wallace_f »

Am I the only one that believes there is a reasonable compromise to be made? Some groups are still faced with extreme difficulty in immigrating to the US. Chinese and Europeans find it quite difficult to immigrate here legally. Even young Europeans have many options to use Working Holiday Visas in many countries to work abroad outside of the EU and experience cultural exchange, but America does not participate.

Why shouldn't the US just treat all people equally who want to come here? Why shouldn't the process be standardized and made legal? If we really are for cultural exchange, why not participate in Working Holiday schemes for young people from Europe and Asia to legally come here like so many other countries do?

Re: The Closing of America

#12

Post by grzm »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #9

I DESPISE being in the position to defend Trump, because he is an embarrassment and a buffoon, but the article is filled with half-facts, and is really disappointing, especially for the New York Times. Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He banned Muslims from the known terrorist states. He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan. So if the author said "Trump ha…

Thanks for taking the time to dig into the piece. A few additional points:

- This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen in the Opinion section. It's not an article. The NYT has editors of different political persuasions, perhaps not as diverse as some would prefer, but while they're all published in by the NYT, I'm sure they're allowed more latitude as opposed to representing the opinion of the Editorial Board. Of course, that does not justify misrepresenting known facts.

- Nowhere in the piece does the word "hate" appear, much less "hate Muslims", so quoting this is misleading. Cohen does say "The president does not like Muslims" and goes on to support this claim. (Whether or not you think this is justified of course is up to the reader.)

- Cohen also clarifies that the ban does not include all Muslims:

It is obvious now as he attempts to justify a planned suspension of visas for Syrians, Iranians, Iraqis and citizens of four other majority Muslim Middle Eastern and African countries, as well as a temporary ban on almost all refugees.

… “It’s not the Muslim ban,” Trump insisted to Muir. No. It’s just a ban on lots of Muslims.

You're very correct that it's important to maintain the nuance and accuracy of what is actually happening to prevent further polarization, to which we should hold the press, and each other.

Re: The Closing of America

#13

Post by slacka »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #9

I DESPISE being in the position to defend Trump, because he is an embarrassment and a buffoon, but the article is filled with half-facts, and is really disappointing, especially for the New York Times. Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He banned Muslims from the known terrorist states. He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan. So if the author said "Trump ha…

> Trump doesn't "hate Muslims."

He started his campaign with a pledge to "ban all muslims entering the US".[1] He has lied about seeing thousands of New Jerseyans celebrating 911. He has also said he "would certainly implement [a Muslim registry]"[1]. OK if you want to be pedantic, fine. No one but Trump knows if he truly hates Muslims. But his actions surely do encourage hate.

> He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan.

This doesn't prove that he doesn't hate. It just proves that his policy is was ill thought-out. The 911 terrorist mostly came from Saudi Arabia and the San Bernardino attacked was carried out by a US citizen of Pakistani descent.[2]

[1] http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-muslim-registry/story?i...

[2] http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/1/25/14383316/tr...

Re: The Closing of America

#14

Post by guildwriter »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #9

I DESPISE being in the position to defend Trump, because he is an embarrassment and a buffoon, but the article is filled with half-facts, and is really disappointing, especially for the New York Times. Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He banned Muslims from the known terrorist states. He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan. So if the author said "Trump ha…

The amount of effort it takes these days to build a truthful picture of the situation is exhausting. Depending on the source of the article I have to do anywhere from 3-5 different kinds of searches to confirm if the assertions are actually true. I've taken to flat out ignoring certain sites now due to an established practice of ideological dishonesty. Partisanship is now not a reason alone to disregard a source, everyone is making their biases clearly known.

Add the bitter rancor and the constant ratcheting rhetoric, it actually for the first time makes me not want to listen anymore. I thought things would get better after the election. After about half a year of toxic rhetoric I was looking forward to some respite. If anything things are just getting worse.

Maybe this is the new normal. I really hope it's not.

Re: The Closing of America

#15

Post by masonic »

grzm wrote: post #12
pfarnsworth wrote: post #9

I DESPISE being in the position to defend Trump, because he is an embarrassment and a buffoon, but the article is filled with half-facts, and is really disappointing, especially for the New York Times. Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He banned Muslims from the known terrorist states. He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan. So if the author said "Trump ha…

Thanks for taking the time to dig into the piece. A few additional points: - This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen in the Opinion section. It's not an article. The NYT has editors of different political persuasions, perhaps not as diverse as some would prefer, but while they're all published in by the NYT, I'm sure they're allowed more latitude as opposed to representing the opinion of the Editorial Board. Of course,…

  This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen. It's not an article.
But Cohen is a Times employee; an editor, in fact. This is not the work of some random partisan think tank writer merely carried by the Times.

These two elements go well beyond the pale of any sense of journalism:

1) "... his cavalier trashing of the alliance and union that ushered the the Continent from its darkest hours..."

Um, what? When has he trashed (cavalierly or not) the USA-Britain alliance of WW2? Has the P.M. stated anything of the kind?

2) Cohen's piling-on of personal insults. He has no place diagnosing anyone with "narcissistic personality disorder", let alone claiming that Trump has a "lust for torture... and carnage".

Re: The Closing of America

#16

Post by grzm »

masonic wrote: post #15
grzm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for taking the time to dig into the piece. A few additional points: - This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen in the Opinion section. It's not an article. The NYT has editors of different political persuasions, perhaps not as diverse as some would prefer, but while they're all published in by the NYT, I'm sure they're allowed more latitude as opposed to representing the opinion of the Editorial Board. Of course,…

This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen. It's not an article. But Cohen is a Times employee ; an editor , in fact. This is not the work of some random partisan think tank writer merely carried by the Times . These two elements go well beyond the pale of any sense of journalism: 1) "... his cavalier trashing of the alliance and union that ushered the the Continent from its darkest hours..." Um, what ? When has he trashe…

Yup. And it's expressing an opinion, as opposed to being a more objective article. As I said above, this doesn't excuse any misrepresentation of fact, but it does allow for more lenient application of perspective and interpretation. And the op-ed pieces do sometimes express partisan or political leanings. This shouldn't be a surprise, or even controversial.

Re: The Closing of America

#17

Post by pfarnsworth »

grzm wrote: post #12
pfarnsworth wrote: post #9

I DESPISE being in the position to defend Trump, because he is an embarrassment and a buffoon, but the article is filled with half-facts, and is really disappointing, especially for the New York Times. Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He banned Muslims from the known terrorist states. He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan. So if the author said "Trump ha…

Thanks for taking the time to dig into the piece. A few additional points: - This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen in the Opinion section. It's not an article. The NYT has editors of different political persuasions, perhaps not as diverse as some would prefer, but while they're all published in by the NYT, I'm sure they're allowed more latitude as opposed to representing the opinion of the Editorial Board. Of course,…

You're correct, as I read it, my mind must have misremembered the quote. I'll add an edit noting what you said.

Re: The Closing of America

#18

Post by grzm »

masonic wrote: post #15
grzm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for taking the time to dig into the piece. A few additional points: - This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen in the Opinion section. It's not an article. The NYT has editors of different political persuasions, perhaps not as diverse as some would prefer, but while they're all published in by the NYT, I'm sure they're allowed more latitude as opposed to representing the opinion of the Editorial Board. Of course,…

This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen. It's not an article. But Cohen is a Times employee ; an editor , in fact. This is not the work of some random partisan think tank writer merely carried by the Times . These two elements go well beyond the pale of any sense of journalism: 1) "... his cavalier trashing of the alliance and union that ushered the the Continent from its darkest hours..." Um, what ? When has he trashe…

I believe the references to World War II are due to the history of the phrase "America First", which goes back at least to the "America First Committee" which was pro-isolationist and against the US entering the war in Europe during WWII.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee

- https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/trump-a...

Re: The Closing of America

#19

Post by mcphage »

masonic wrote: post #15
grzm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for taking the time to dig into the piece. A few additional points: - This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen in the Opinion section. It's not an article. The NYT has editors of different political persuasions, perhaps not as diverse as some would prefer, but while they're all published in by the NYT, I'm sure they're allowed more latitude as opposed to representing the opinion of the Editorial Board. Of course,…

This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen. It's not an article. But Cohen is a Times employee ; an editor , in fact. This is not the work of some random partisan think tank writer merely carried by the Times . These two elements go well beyond the pale of any sense of journalism: 1) "... his cavalier trashing of the alliance and union that ushered the the Continent from its darkest hours..." Um, what ? When has he trashe…

> This is an Op-Ed piece by Roger Cohen. It's not an article. But Cohen is a Times employee; an editor, in fact.

Why, it's almost like that would make this piece... an editorial!

Re: The Closing of America

#20

Post by [deleted] »

slacka wrote: post #13
pfarnsworth wrote: post #9

I DESPISE being in the position to defend Trump, because he is an embarrassment and a buffoon, but the article is filled with half-facts, and is really disappointing, especially for the New York Times. Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He banned Muslims from the known terrorist states. He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan. So if the author said "Trump ha…

> Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He started his campaign with a pledge to "ban all muslims entering the US".[1] He has lied about seeing thousands of New Jerseyans celebrating 911. He has also said he "would certainly implement [a Muslim registry]"[1]. OK if you want to be pedantic, fine. No one but Trump knows if he truly hates Muslims. But his actions surely do encourage hate. > He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia…

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