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Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#11

Post by aphextron »

general_ai wrote: post #4

As a former Soviet citizen, I fail to see why anyone would care what this clown has to say. No one in Russia cares, for example. He basically ran a superpower into the ground in 6 years flat, from space shuttle to hunger and abject poverty for most of the population. Not even a CIA puppet regime would be able to do a better job.

I wish people wouldn't downvote someone for an alternate opinion. It's interesting to see the Russian view point on these things. I think the parent poster is indoctrinated with the typical anti-western mindset, but it's still valid and adds to the discussion.

> He basically ran a superpower into the ground in 6 years flat, from space shuttle to hunger and abject poverty

The Soviet Union was in free fall economically long before Gorbachev. It was a systemic failure. To pile the genocidal failings of 3 generations of communist rule onto the first leader to free his people from that oppression is a terrible perversion of history.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#12

Post by david38 »

jayjay71 wrote: post #10
general_ai wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You "remember" wrong. I actually _was_ there. Neglect and price of oil weren't in any way fatal to a largely self-sufficient country. Complete collapse of all branches of the government was.

I'd like to hear more. Can you be more specific about what you think led to the fall of the Soviet Union?

It didn't help that the US did everything it could to drop the price of oil specifically to destroy the income source of the USSR. USSR is too dependent on that single income source and left itself open to attack.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#13

Post by throwaway122916 »

aphextron wrote: post #11
general_ai wrote: post #4

As a former Soviet citizen, I fail to see why anyone would care what this clown has to say. No one in Russia cares, for example. He basically ran a superpower into the ground in 6 years flat, from space shuttle to hunger and abject poverty for most of the population. Not even a CIA puppet regime would be able to do a better job.

I wish people wouldn't downvote someone for an alternate opinion. It's interesting to see the Russian view point on these things. I think the parent poster is indoctrinated with the typical anti-western mindset, but it's still valid and adds to the discussion. > He basically ran a superpower into the ground in 6 years flat, from space shuttle to hunger and abject poverty The Soviet Union was in free fall economically…

I lived in Soviet Union as well during the collapse. I think there is a lot of propaganda from the west that makes you think it wasn't Gorbachev's fault.

People were happy, had children and believed in their country and made progress in art and science. Then one person who possibly had good intentions "gave everyone freedom". You can't just do that without consequences. It should have been a very gradual transition similar to how it is in China. Instead the country got completely destroyed. Every single thriving industry collapsed and people's savings were worth nothing basically overnight. Police stopped enforcing laws, gangs appeared all over the place, everyone started doing drugs. It was a disaster.

Gorbachev was almost immediately hated throughout the country.

If USSR economy was in free fall, how come GDP per capita was about 2x smaller in Soviet Union compared to USA in 1989 while income distribution was much more even?

Edit: If you believe propaganda in US doesn't exist, look at this law https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#14

Post by viljar »

throwaway122916 wrote: post #13
aphextron wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people wouldn't downvote someone for an alternate opinion. It's interesting to see the Russian view point on these things. I think the parent poster is indoctrinated with the typical anti-western mindset, but it's still valid and adds to the discussion. > He basically ran a superpower into the ground in 6 years flat, from space shuttle to hunger and abject poverty The Soviet Union was in free fall economically…

I lived in Soviet Union as well during the collapse. I think there is a lot of propaganda from the west that makes you think it wasn't Gorbachev's fault. People were happy, had children and believed in their country and made progress in art and science. Then one person who possibly had good intentions "gave everyone freedom". You can't just do that without consequences. It should have been a very gradual transition s…

> People were happy

Russians - may be, All the other oppressed and occupied nations - no. Cant vouch for other but almost every Estonian secretly hoped for freedom and despised Russians. When our chance came we acted swiftly. Soviet Union was just another form of Russian Empire and a way to try to control the world.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#16

Post by WeaselNo7 »

viljar wrote: post #14
throwaway122916 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Soviet Union as well during the collapse. I think there is a lot of propaganda from the west that makes you think it wasn't Gorbachev's fault. People were happy, had children and believed in their country and made progress in art and science. Then one person who possibly had good intentions "gave everyone freedom". You can't just do that without consequences. It should have been a very gradual transition s…

> People were happy Russians - may be, All the other oppressed and occupied nations - no. Cant vouch for other but almost every Estonian secretly hoped for freedom and despised Russians. When our chance came we acted swiftly. Soviet Union was just another form of Russian Empire and a way to try to control the world.

This is a similar tale told by friends from Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#17

Post by unknown_apostle »

general_ai wrote: post #4

As a former Soviet citizen, I fail to see why anyone would care what this clown has to say. No one in Russia cares, for example. He basically ran a superpower into the ground in 6 years flat, from space shuttle to hunger and abject poverty for most of the population. Not even a CIA puppet regime would be able to do a better job.

Gorbachev inherited 65 years of Soviet communism: a super fragile system, based on very tight, top-down command & control. On the surface these command & control societies appear more orderly than democratic societies, but they are very bad at dealing with complexity and at adapting to big changes. Gorbachev made the "mistake" of perturbing the system too much through his attempts at reform.

Also, economically, I don't think the Soviet Union was in such great shape as you say. A space shuttle is not the same as having an economy that creates surplus wealth in real terms. The war in Afghanistan and having to compete with a West bouncing back from 1970s stagflation were other factors not under Gorbachev's control.

The same will at some point happen to e.g. North Korea or Cuba. It has happened to some of these Arabic regimes: when the top echelons are removed or the repressive nature is relaxed, the entire order collapses, leaving a big void and a population which has less than before. In some cases, much less... (Hopefully, North Korea and Cuba will receive lots of support from their neighbours, so it won't be too bad.)

It may also happen with our financial system, the continuation of which comes with ever escalating costs, top-down intervention, bluff, guarantees and outright financial repression. Like Gorbachev, some politician or bank would accidentally upset the balance and would get the blame. E.g. "he raised the rates too fast". Or "too slow", depending on what actually happens. But in reality you should blame the historical fragility of the system itself. (I like the term Soviet monetarism.)

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#18

Post by throwing20010 »

throwaway122916 wrote: post #13
aphextron wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people wouldn't downvote someone for an alternate opinion. It's interesting to see the Russian view point on these things. I think the parent poster is indoctrinated with the typical anti-western mindset, but it's still valid and adds to the discussion. > He basically ran a superpower into the ground in 6 years flat, from space shuttle to hunger and abject poverty The Soviet Union was in free fall economically…

I lived in Soviet Union as well during the collapse. I think there is a lot of propaganda from the west that makes you think it wasn't Gorbachev's fault. People were happy, had children and believed in their country and made progress in art and science. Then one person who possibly had good intentions "gave everyone freedom". You can't just do that without consequences. It should have been a very gradual transition s…

I remember lawlessness and mafia - ising of police under Yeltsin and after Yeltsin, not during Gorbachev's reign. The way Gorbachev was deposed from power, and the actors involved in that pretty much told one - sadly- what to expect.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#19

Post by egman_ekki »

WeaselNo7 wrote: post #16
viljar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People were happy Russians - may be, All the other oppressed and occupied nations - no. Cant vouch for other but almost every Estonian secretly hoped for freedom and despised Russians. When our chance came we acted swiftly. Soviet Union was just another form of Russian Empire and a way to try to control the world.

This is a similar tale told by friends from Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia.

However, for people in these countries it wasn't a tale. It was a harsh reality...
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