Live data from Hacker News

Incredibly low-priced private schools

boston.com

11–20 of 62 posts

Re: Incredibly low-priced private schools

#11
post #7

Even most private schools in America charge less per pupil than the government pays to educate a student in a public school. Governments are rarely efficient because they do not have to be.

>Governments are rarely efficient because they do not have to be. I'm starting to develop a theory that governments are efficient, even very much so, except to another metric. The US Gov's Education Department metric seems to be "pleasing the teacher's unions", not financial efficiency. And at that, they are very good.

With the result that votes for certain political parties are produced?

Re: Incredibly low-priced private schools

#12
post #4

This is very cool, but I can't help remembering that the Wahhabi schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan (incorrectly called "madrassas", which is just a generic Arabic word for "school") would also fall into this category of small, private, low-cost schools. I wonder what can be done to ensure that schools like this that are run by potentially less scrupulous proprietors provide a quality education. I know that's not we…

> How are private schools in the US regulated to prevent similar situations (if they are at all)? In practice, market forces do a decent (though not perfect) job: most private schools want to produce students who have a chance of getting into a good college, and one of the more effective ways to convince colleges you aren't insane is to: 1) have your students do well on standardized tests like the SAT; and/or 2) be a…

The caveat is that this works now because most parents who pay to send their children to a private school do so to improve academic outcomes, and because getting into a good college is considered a very positive academic outcome.

Re: Incredibly low-priced private schools

#13
post #3

I've lamented the fact that we are such small thinkers today. Our neighborhood public school is among the worst in the state. Local private schools cost about 1500/mo for gradeschool. I was looked at as a wild man for suggesting we should start our own school. 20 kids' worth of parents can afford to employ a teacher at a very attractive rate for both parties I suspect.

Don't beat yourself up too badly: the unions have already thought of this, and it is likely illegal in your jurisdiction. After you get past the homeschool exemption, which was a brutal battle to get approved in many jurisdictions, you'll enter a heavily regulated industry against an entrenched competitor who has a legal moat and a team of lawyers who will file papers contesting each and every one of the seventy three different approvals you'll need to open for business.

This is why actual private schools in the US require strong institutional backing (i.e. a church willing to subsidize them to the tune of millions) or effort commensurate with opening a new factory rather than a new salon.

Re: Incredibly low-priced private schools

#14
post #4

This is very cool, but I can't help remembering that the Wahhabi schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan (incorrectly called "madrassas", which is just a generic Arabic word for "school") would also fall into this category of small, private, low-cost schools. I wonder what can be done to ensure that schools like this that are run by potentially less scrupulous proprietors provide a quality education. I know that's not we…

1. You're assuming your conclusion. 2. Curriculum oversight is just another way of saying state sponsored indoctrination. 3. If parents believe that the schools are better than the alternatives, what right does anybody else have to butt in? In the American case they already pay for them through (local property) taxes anyway so they probably have good reason to pay a second time for the private version. 4. Would you s…

I don't think I'm making any assumptions -- these outcomes have been seen, as I've said, in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

I am not going to respond to your second point... I think that is a point of debate that you're making out to be far more black-and-white than it really is.

There is further complexity than you are admitting in your last two examples. There is a broad-reaching social impact that schooling, or lack thereof, has. This is true locally as well as globally, as seen by what the Wahhabi schools produce. Would I oppose the Amish exemption? No, because the vast majority of students in this nation have access to basic education. Would I oppose a private school system that was teaching violent fundamentalism at the expense of basic education, if that system was the only option serving a large area of my country? You bet I would, and that goes for government or private systems.

Again: this is a complicated issue -- and no one should pretend otherwise. It is a false dichotomy to declare that our options are "state sponsored indoctrination" and forcible assimilation, or a free-market utopia where parents pick what school works best for them. A non-trivial number of people would pick the degree mill school given the choice: I am trying to figure out how we disincentive that option in an areas that don't have the social infrastructure to stigmatize that decision.

Re: Incredibly low-priced private schools

#15
post #4

This is very cool, but I can't help remembering that the Wahhabi schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan (incorrectly called "madrassas", which is just a generic Arabic word for "school") would also fall into this category of small, private, low-cost schools. I wonder what can be done to ensure that schools like this that are run by potentially less scrupulous proprietors provide a quality education. I know that's not we…

> How are private schools in the US regulated to prevent similar situations (if they are at all)? In practice, market forces do a decent (though not perfect) job: most private schools want to produce students who have a chance of getting into a good college, and one of the more effective ways to convince colleges you aren't insane is to: 1) have your students do well on standardized tests like the SAT; and/or 2) be a…

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the NAIS.

Re: Incredibly low-priced private schools

#16
post #9

Even most private schools in America charge less per pupil than the government pays to educate a student in a public school. Governments are rarely efficient because they do not have to be.

According to http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_pri_sch_stu-sp... the US spends about $6K per child for primary education. I don't know about the US but private schools here in the UK are rather more than that (we pay a total of about $15K a year).

Primary education (your source) is a little cheaper, for one thing. Regional variations matter a lot. And there are a lot of other factors.

According to the U.S. Census, U.S. public schools spent $9,138 per student in 2006. This varies from $14,884 in New York to $5,437 in Utah:

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/ed...

According to the council for private education, the average private school tuition in the U.S. for 2007-2008 was $8,549 at all levels, and $6,733 at elementary level. Non-religious schools were significantly more expensive than religiously-affiliated schools:

http://www.capenet.org/facts.html

It would be hard to directly compare spending because one school might offer more than another. For example, a private school in Orange County, California, may provide laptops to all students, expensive science labs, and fancy football fields (and would have to pay a lot for land), while a public school in rural Nevada may not have any of that stuff. That wouldn't prove that private education was more expensive or less efficient, just that the people in one region wanted different things and were willing to pay more for those things.

Re: Incredibly low-priced private schools

#18
post #4

This is very cool, but I can't help remembering that the Wahhabi schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan (incorrectly called "madrassas", which is just a generic Arabic word for "school") would also fall into this category of small, private, low-cost schools. I wonder what can be done to ensure that schools like this that are run by potentially less scrupulous proprietors provide a quality education. I know that's not we…

This is exactly what teachers unions have said in court briefs opposing schools opened by noted extremist religious groups like Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Reform Jews, etc. (There are constitutional amendments in some states which were written for the express purpose of making it harder for Catholics to open schools. Guess why they'll never get repealed?)

Re: Incredibly low-priced private schools

#19

Even most private schools in America charge less per pupil than the government pays to educate a student in a public school. Governments are rarely efficient because they do not have to be.

The public schools are obliged to take just about every kid who shows up, including children with severe emotional, cognitive, or physical disabilities. In the US, they are also obliged to provide disabled children with education “in the least restrictive environment”, meaning that if a disabled child can be educated with special accommodations alongside non-disabled kids, that’s what the school has to provide, even if putting the disabled child in a specialized classroom all day would be cheaper.

Private schools, by contrast, have no obligation to accommodate disabled students. For that matter, they’re more or less free to say “there’s nothing wrong with your child, but s/he wouldn’t fit in to our school”.

Re: Incredibly low-priced private schools

#20
post #3

I've lamented the fact that we are such small thinkers today. Our neighborhood public school is among the worst in the state. Local private schools cost about 1500/mo for gradeschool. I was looked at as a wild man for suggesting we should start our own school. 20 kids' worth of parents can afford to employ a teacher at a very attractive rate for both parties I suspect.

Local caring and local responsibility are key to any system of quality education.

The public schools I grew up with in the American midwest (all lower middle class) were uniformly good but this was 50 years ago when such schools were widely funded by local sources (e.g., property taxes from the community), did not have to account to the distant bureaucracies or have to focus on prepping kids to meet minimum proficiency tests by which educational results could be measured with mirrors, and did not have to deal with unions whose goals seem to be as much about promoting the interests of their members via ever-expansive forms of public funding as they are about helping kids learn. The public high schools I attended in California in the late 1960s were also good, and it was naturally expected in that day that the vast majority of the kids would not only graduate but would also be literate and reasonably taught once they did so - there too, all funding was purely local.

The key is to have the schools, whether public or private, in the hands of people who care really care about what the kids learn and that means local people who know them and know their families. This element has largely been lost in modern America's public schools, and it is a real tragedy.

It is nice to see the resourcefulness of parents who seek to overcome the resulting mess but this is a struggle that is often just plain desperate in light of the overwhelming problems that now beset the public schools. This piece reminds us that there is always hope where people really care.

Post reply on HN