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The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

businessinsider.in

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Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#11

Post by shabda »

shripadk wrote: post #7
madmax108 wrote: post #4

After the recent Demonetization brouhaha, which led to over a 100 deaths[1], most of them from the lower strata of society, it makes sense for the current government to start off UBI whole heartedly, especially since they can tie in the entire demonetization/cashless economy/jan dhan etc. stories together. However, I sincerely hope that the execution is well planned, rather than hasty. This article though seems to be…

I'll take liberty to correct your perspective: A demonetization move that directly affected livelihood of billion Indians, with a possibility of large-scale riots, but ended with only 100 deaths. I don't see how it cannot be termed a success. Can you think of any major move that directly affected the entire country but did not end in large scale riots? If you need to understand what a "hasty decision" means take a lo…

I'll take liberty to correct your perspective: A demonetization move that directly affected livelihood of billion Indians, but we don't know whether for good or for worse. I don't like Mr Modi, but I was cautiously optimistic the day it was announced. However over last two months, its been clear to me that no thought was put in the decision.

If you want to look at a data driven journalism to the flip flops, you can start here: http://www.indiaspend.com/cover-story/how-modi-changed-and-c....

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#12

Post by aninhumer »

sharemywin wrote: post #5

I just don't see how it won't cause massive inflation. basically to the point that the payout is practically worthless.

Because no money is being created, it's being reallocated from other people, so it doesn't directly affect the money supply.

The recipients are more likely to spend it, which creates some demand (and thus inflation), but it should still be less than the increase in spending power it provides them.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#13

Post by tornadoboy55 »

gravypod wrote: post #3
dovdovdov wrote: post #2

What is happening? I guess shadow powers don't want global riot in 10-20 years.

Most of my friends who are communists are calling this "class control" and I'm laughing at them because they are getting what they wanted just without mass riots and murders of the rich.

How are they getting what they want? What communists (and in a lesser sense, socialist countries) want is less of a chasm between the lower and upper echelons of society. Just this day it was posted on Reddit that a top London banking boss will already have made more since the start of the year than an average worker will the entire year (!!). All UBI does is make sure everyone has a baseline to live from. That's great, but its just a sedative for the masses. You're a lot more likely to riot if your kids are starving. I wonder what will lie beyond UBI. 3D-printers for everyone? Everyone can print a fancy car, a lobster, a new arm, etc.. which would basically make everyone completely equal.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#14

Post by 234dd57d2c8db »

sharemywin wrote: post #5

I just don't see how it won't cause massive inflation. basically to the point that the payout is practically worthless.

If they don't increase the money supply, then it won't cause inflation. Whether they can provide a UBI without doing so is another question.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#15

Post by macspoofing »

tornadoboy55 wrote: post #13
gravypod wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of my friends who are communists are calling this "class control" and I'm laughing at them because they are getting what they wanted just without mass riots and murders of the rich.

How are they getting what they want? What communists (and in a lesser sense, socialist countries) want is less of a chasm between the lower and upper echelons of society. Just this day it was posted on Reddit that a top London banking boss will already have made more since the start of the year than an average worker will the entire year (!!). All UBI does is make sure everyone has a baseline to live from. That's gre…

>That's great, but its just a sedative for the masses.

As opposed to the great energy drink of communism?

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#17

Post by awjr »

sharemywin wrote: post #5

I just don't see how it won't cause massive inflation. basically to the point that the payout is practically worthless.

UBI as an idea needs testing. Theoretically it solves an immense number of social problems (homeless/poverty) while drastically reducing government size (signifcantly less administration).

There are also a number of behavioural assumptions that people are making that also need to be tested, primarily the assumption that people just won't work.

What I think you will find is that people will not be forced into virtual slavery working for a pittance just to survive any more. UBI will have a net benefit on society.

What UBI says about our monetary system and whether money is inherently just a way to control society is another matter.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#18

Post by neilwilson »

aninhumer wrote: post #12
sharemywin wrote: post #5

I just don't see how it won't cause massive inflation. basically to the point that the payout is practically worthless.

Because no money is being created, it's being reallocated from other people, so it doesn't directly affect the money supply. The recipients are more likely to spend it, which creates some demand (and thus inflation), but it should still be less than the increase in spending power it provides them.

"Because no money is being created, it's being reallocated from other people, so it doesn't directly affect the money supply."

And unfortunately that is bunkum. Money isn't stuff. If you take what is currently savings and put it into flow then you will get an increase in production - that is then effectively taken away and given to people who haven't earned it.

The result is, over time, an increase in political pressure to get rid of the hand out from those doing all the work and getting nothing for it in return.

And that's how an income guarantee scheme ends. Just like every other 'experiment' in history.

People want the ability to exchange their labour for goods and services, not be the recipients of handouts and resented for it by those doing the work.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#19

Post by enugu »

sharemywin wrote: post #5

I just don't see how it won't cause massive inflation. basically to the point that the payout is practically worthless.

Every basic income story has an inflation comment.

Think in terms of proportion of wealth helps. If a company issues new shares and gives it X(analogy to govt printing money), the overall dilution in value of share doesn't prevent that the wealth of X from going up. For instance, giving 100% new shares of a 10 million dollars company to X means each share has half of the old value, but X has nevertheless gained 5 million dollars.

Redistribution, as opposed to new money, would put even less stress.

Another argument for inflation, is the possibility that the poor are consuming non-elastic goods(ie supply doesnt increase with price), so lot of extra money effectively ends up with the sellers of these goods. But this is probably false and at least not obvious. It has to be shown why supply of goods that people consume is inelastic. Most likely redistribution would lead to poor gaining a larger share of the output produced in a year relative to the rich.

Note that there can be other potential arguments against basic income(wasting money in alcohol, alternatives like supplementing wage-income), but inflation doesnt directly make the case against it.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#20

Post by neilwilson »

tdb7893 wrote: post #16
sharemywin wrote: post #5

I just don't see how it won't cause massive inflation. basically to the point that the payout is practically worthless.

It's not creating any money so I don't get why it needs to be massively inflationary.

Very simple. You are moving stuff to people who don't work for a living and giving mere money in return.

So there is less stuff available for those who work and more money chasing it. Which is inflation. Once those working realise they have been fiddled, they politically agitate to have the handouts stopped.

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