Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 83 posts

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#11

Post by muninn_ »

berntb wrote: post #8
ue_ wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's capitalism in today's world. It's the "free market" at work. I don't think the focus should be on preventing people from using "bad labour" but rather on making it so that there would be no reason to use "bad labour". As much as people on HN especially would be so critical of Socialism, they often shy away from these topics - beacuse they are uncomfortable to think about. The fact of the matter is that…

This article by Krugman changed my world view: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... It is almost 20 years old and notes that industrialization and modernization is a process. It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it [edit: except free money, like with oil], including simple jobs in the beginning -- and now China is doing it. In my book, it is good for humanity wi…

Thanks for posting this. It's incredibly Euro-centric to sit here and complain about the perceived child/human rights abuses that happen in China when those very exact things are what industrialized Europe.

I really wish we would all just spend more time focusing on our countries and improving our quality of life through trade and the free exchange of ideas. Other countries don't have to listen to our lessons or advice, or our experience, but being critical gets us nowhere.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#12

Post by jonknee »

siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

> Why is it that product built in foreign countries that do not adhere to US laws and regulations on manufacturing and labor are allowed to be sold in the US?

Because of our trade rules. Modern trade agreements are pretty much about mandating labor/environmental regulations and respect of IP (mainly pharma/movies/music) in exchange for easier access to the the US market.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#13

Post by [deleted] »

siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

[deleted]

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#15

Post by sfifs »

siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

Question - when the US, Europe and Japan were industrializing from 1880s through 1960s and dragged everyone into disastrous wars, did any other market complain about worker safety or abuse or pollution (the famous London fog etc.) and refuse to buy products?

When now other nations are going through an industrialization phase that's actually far more respectful of worker rights than the West's industrialization was, why complain?

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#16

Post by Alex3917 »

berntb wrote: post #8
ue_ wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's capitalism in today's world. It's the "free market" at work. I don't think the focus should be on preventing people from using "bad labour" but rather on making it so that there would be no reason to use "bad labour". As much as people on HN especially would be so critical of Socialism, they often shy away from these topics - beacuse they are uncomfortable to think about. The fact of the matter is that…

This article by Krugman changed my world view: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... It is almost 20 years old and notes that industrialization and modernization is a process. It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it [edit: except free money, like with oil], including simple jobs in the beginning -- and now China is doing it. In my book, it is good for humanity wi…

> It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it

Bali went straight from having an agrarian economy to a service-based economy without ever going through an industrial period. It can happen given the right conditions, but it isn't common.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#17

Post by manarth »

siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

  "Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not."
I can't think of any legal reason why not. If the product meets US electrical/safety standards, and isn't in breach of IP such as patents, sure, it could be sold.

Whether anyone would buy it is a different question: I wouldn't be surprised if a product built in such a way were boycotted.

I would also expect to see court cases and fines (probably in excess of all profits for the product), for the labour conditions.

So sure, you could probably sell it. You probably wouldn't profit from it though.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#18

Post by manarth »

sfifs wrote: post #15
siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

Question - when the US, Europe and Japan were industrializing from 1880s through 1960s and dragged everyone into disastrous wars, did any other market complain about worker safety or abuse or pollution (the famous London fog etc.) and refuse to buy products? When now other nations are going through an industrialization phase that's actually far more respectful of worker rights than the West's industrialization was, w…

  "did any other market complain about worker safety or abuse or pollution and refuse to buy products?"
Pre-industrial revolution, living conditions were pretty poor working conditions were pretty poor life expectancy was pretty poor, so it wasn't exactly making things worse. Despite all the problems caused by industrialisation, it was still a net positive.

Now that we've progressed through industrialisation to a point where life expectancy has dramatically improved, along with living conditions and all the rest, it's given us a point of comparison.

Countries that are going through an industrialisation phase aren't being criticised in comparison to a pre-industrialisation state, they're being criticised in comparison to what other post-industrialised countries have achieved. Sure, it's an unfair comparison, but the first time around, that comparison didn't exist.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#19

Post by bisby »

intralizee wrote: post #6
siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

I believe one of Apple's higher ups has talked about child labor before. I'm not sure if it was Steve or Tim but the convo was that its impossible to handle without hurting the communities because the norm is child labor over there. So the conditions for the children are worse if they have no labor. It's really complicated and not something that you can judge from an arm chair position, you have to go over there and…

If you have a family of 6 (lets assume 2 parents and 4 kids) all working for 50 cents an hour.

Saying "your kids have to go to school and not work" and then paying the adults 3 dollars an hour. The family winds up making more money without the kids having to work. (in this admittedly limited example, the family makes double)

If you take the kids out of the equation without increasing the parental pay, then yes, you'll have a harder time with things, as the family just lost 66% of their income, which will mean cutting back.

So you are correct that it is complicated and "stop kids from working" isn't the FULL answer. But it doesn't mean that there aren't solutions - plenty of countries have child labor laws without falling apart.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#20

Post by dilemma »

Alex3917 wrote: post #16
berntb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article by Krugman changed my world view: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... It is almost 20 years old and notes that industrialization and modernization is a process. It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it [edit: except free money, like with oil], including simple jobs in the beginning -- and now China is doing it. In my book, it is good for humanity wi…

> It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it Bali went straight from having an agrarian economy to a service-based economy without ever going through an industrial period. It can happen given the right conditions, but it isn't common.

Did it really? Is Bali's GDP per capita comparable to that of United States or Germany?
Post reply on HN