Videogames: The Unfashionable Fine Art • Hacker News Board

Re: Videogames: The Unfashionable Fine Art

#11

Post by kbenson » Wed, Dec 07, 2016, 3:44 AM UTC

andrewclunn wrote: post #2

Movie: 2 hours passive absorption. Must know how to speak the language. Creators have full control of the narrative. Book: 8 hours intellectually engaged. Must know how to read. Creators have control of the narrative, but not the pacing at which it is consumed. Video game: 30 hours actively participating. Must have skills specific to the medium, which often vary by genre. Creators have to allow for disruption and var…

There are plenty of games that are much shorter, in the range of 1-3 hours. These are often from independent studios that aren't trying to pump out a blockbuster, and can be much more artistic and powerful than the common entry. Limbo[1] is perhaps my favorite in this category.

1: http://www.playdead.com/games/limbo/

Re: Videogames: The Unfashionable Fine Art

#12

Post by pdkl95 » Wed, Dec 07, 2016, 4:00 AM UTC

andrewclunn wrote: post #2

Movie: 2 hours passive absorption. Must know how to speak the language. Creators have full control of the narrative. Book: 8 hours intellectually engaged. Must know how to read. Creators have control of the narrative, but not the pacing at which it is consumed. Video game: 30 hours actively participating. Must have skills specific to the medium, which often vary by genre. Creators have to allow for disruption and var…

> Want to tell a story? Games are then an objectively inferior choice.

Absolutely incorrect. Games are simply a different way to tell a story, with different advantages and disadvantages. One particular advantage that might not be obvious initially is that non-interactive mediums such as video can (with rare exceptions) onlyt induce in the audience sympathetic emotions. Something tragic happens to an important character, you feel sad for them. Interactive storytelling can utilize direct emotions because you are the actor. Consider the tragic death of a character in a movie that makes you feel sad, yet you continue to watch. A similar tragedy happening to the player character (permadeath) in a video game may make you rage quit.

For a very discussion of these ideas about storytelling in an interactive media, I recommend watching at least the last (4th) episode[1] of Innuendo Studio's video essay "Story Beats"[2].

> Creators have full control of the narrative.

You (and anybody else interested in the theory of storytelling) should also watch "The Artist is Absent"[3] by the same person. It's technically an analysis of Davey Wreden's "The Beginner's Guide", but it's really an amazing 30 minute crash course in semiotics, death of the author, and enunciation theory as applied to The Beginner's Guide.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyhrKPLDCyY&index=4&list=PLJ...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY4f8-eoY0mg...

edit: I somehow forgot to include this link

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N6y6LEwsKc

Re: Videogames: The Unfashionable Fine Art

#13

Post by wallace_f » Wed, Dec 07, 2016, 4:23 AM UTC

40acres wrote: post #6

wallace_f wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Want to tell a story? Games are then an objectively inferior choice. Only with respect to time constraints, is what you mean, right?

I think the talent just isn't there also.

I respectfully disagree.

I love art, but I really dislike pretentiousness attached to art.

Gabe Newell wrote that he appreciated the art in Super Mario 64, and he was convinced by that game that video games could be art.

If we're going to talk about what's 'objectively better' or 'talent,' the fact is we can say something like this with certainty: Gabe Newell is objectively better than almost everyone at some things, including coding and creating and managing an innovative business that will bring an enormous number of hours of joy to billions of people. Can we say the art he likes is inferior to the art you like?

Re: Videogames: The Unfashionable Fine Art

#14

Post by Fricken » Wed, Dec 07, 2016, 4:40 AM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #12

andrewclunn wrote: post #2

Movie: 2 hours passive absorption. Must know how to speak the language. Creators have full control of the narrative. Book: 8 hours intellectually engaged. Must know how to read. Creators have control of the narrative, but not the pacing at which it is consumed. Video game: 30 hours actively participating. Must have skills specific to the medium, which often vary by genre. Creators have to allow for disruption and var…

> Want to tell a story? Games are then an objectively inferior choice. Absolutely incorrect. Games are simply a different way to tell a story, with different advantages and disadvantages. One particular advantage that might not be obvious initially is that non-interactive mediums such as video can (with rare exceptions) onlyt induce in the audience sympathetic emotions. Something tragic happens to an important charac…

I don't know where this idea of games being a storytelling medium even comes from. I've never seen a game that tells a story. I've only seen games that are interrupted by story. Or maybe they're stories that are interrupted by gaming, if you want to look at it that way.

Re: Videogames: The Unfashionable Fine Art

#15

Post by pdkl95 » Wed, Dec 07, 2016, 5:22 AM UTC

Fricken wrote: post #14

pdkl95 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Want to tell a story? Games are then an objectively inferior choice. Absolutely incorrect. Games are simply a different way to tell a story, with different advantages and disadvantages. One particular advantage that might not be obvious initially is that non-interactive mediums such as video can (with rare exceptions) onlyt induce in the audience sympathetic emotions. Something tragic happens to an important charac…

I don't know where this idea of games being a storytelling medium even comes from. I've never seen a game that tells a story. I've only seen games that are interrupted by story. Or maybe they're stories that are interrupted by gaming, if you want to look at it that way.

You're probably confusing where the story is.

> I've only seen games that are interrupted by story.

A common misconception is that "story" in a video game is like a movie or book. A video game may also contain storytelling in the style of a movie" or book, but that's not what I'm referring to. Interactive storytelling in a video game is the mechanics.

In addition to [1] in my post above, I strongly recommend watching this[4] Extra Credits video about narrative mechanics, which discusses the story of the classic game Missile Command. Maybe you don't like the story, or you think it's simplistic, but it's still a story. Missile Command is inherently a story about the futility of war. Video games are an interesting medium for storytelling because they get you, acting as an actor in that story, to realize some aspects of the plot on your own. Everybody that plays Missile Command realizes the futility of the situation without having to be told that directly; it comes from the mechanics directly.

For a very good example of a more detailed story that is told primarily through the mechanics, I highly recommend playing Undertale[5]. The story in Undertale cannot be told in a non-interactive medium. A movie or book telling the same story can tell part of the story, but it would be a different story that wouldn't have nearly the same impact.

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQJA5YjvHDU

[5] DO NOT watch or read anything about the game first. I'd even recommend against even watching the trailer. Undertale has a serious problem with spoilers, and like a traditional "who did it" murder mystery, you should experience it as the author intended.

Re: Videogames: The Unfashionable Fine Art

#16

Post by shalmanese » Wed, Dec 07, 2016, 7:50 PM UTC

Fricken wrote: post #14

pdkl95 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Want to tell a story? Games are then an objectively inferior choice. Absolutely incorrect. Games are simply a different way to tell a story, with different advantages and disadvantages. One particular advantage that might not be obvious initially is that non-interactive mediums such as video can (with rare exceptions) onlyt induce in the audience sympathetic emotions. Something tragic happens to an important charac…

I don't know where this idea of games being a storytelling medium even comes from. I've never seen a game that tells a story. I've only seen games that are interrupted by story. Or maybe they're stories that are interrupted by gaming, if you want to look at it that way.

What about games like EVE Online where the players construct the story like the Battle of B-R5RB [1]. To me, it really emphasizes how games can tell stories in a way intrinsic to the medium and unreplicatable by any traditional medium.

[1] https://www.wired.com/2014/02/eve-online-battle-of-b-r/