Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#11

Post by the_duke » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:32 AM UTC

goldenkek wrote: post #5

Some questions: We act like stimuli are exact things but the brain is all about abstraction. In fact, a certain amount of entropy/information enters your beain every day from vision, smell, touch, etc. Its not stored in full fidelity. There arent enough nuerons or energy for that. So what is lost? Well...whatever isnt abstractable, right? You celebrate your birthday. You remember blowing out the cake in pristine visi…

Lossy compression combined with abstraction mechanism might be more a more appropriate way to describe it.

What gets processed and enters consciousness only a small percentage of the actual raw input from sensory "devices".

What get's stored is even less than that, is highly inaccurate and degrades quickly.

Abstraction comes in at finding patterns in the lossy data, and filling in the gaps in the data to form a coherent perception/memory.

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#12

Post by goldenkek » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:32 AM UTC

visarga wrote: post #10

dualogy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is lost? Well...whatever isnt abstractable, right? Raises a most curious question.. what ever isnt abstractable?

We're just systems that transport our genes into the next generation. Our perception exists mostly to help us find food, avoid dangers and reproduce. Of course we lose a lot of information, because it is irrelevant to us.

Fortunately, evolution selected for intellect even though it might have initially have been past a minimum fitness/energy valley. Id encourage you to rethink this simplistic view that ignores the general tool that developed in order to handle more random and abstract specific solutions to threats.

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#13

Post by jarmitage » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:35 AM UTC

goldenkek wrote: post #5

Some questions: We act like stimuli are exact things but the brain is all about abstraction. In fact, a certain amount of entropy/information enters your beain every day from vision, smell, touch, etc. Its not stored in full fidelity. There arent enough nuerons or energy for that. So what is lost? Well...whatever isnt abstractable, right? You celebrate your birthday. You remember blowing out the cake in pristine visi…

Andy Clark - Perceiving as Predicting https://youtu.be/05P41FQlgjI?t=703

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#14

Post by kurosawa » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:42 AM UTC

visarga wrote: post #10

dualogy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is lost? Well...whatever isnt abstractable, right? Raises a most curious question.. what ever isnt abstractable?

We're just systems that transport our genes into the next generation. Our perception exists mostly to help us find food, avoid dangers and reproduce. Of course we lose a lot of information, because it is irrelevant to us.

I use my perception to do much more, most of the time. All evidence points to humans being a good few steps above other animals for whom those three activities are not only necessary but almost sufficient.

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#15

Post by kurosawa » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:48 AM UTC

dkdkdjfjf wrote: post #2

Would anyone here be able to offer some book suggestions for tackling AI from the neuroscience/ biological perspective, as opposed to the computer science/ computational perspective? I want to expand my horizons.

The following suggestion is not about tackling AI from neuroscience/biological perspective, but one that critiques the computational view of mind/brain - which provides only a limited picture.

See the work of prof. Walter Freeman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Jackson_Freeman_III

Esp: Reclaiming Cognition - Ed. Nunez and Freeman.

Also see the work of Hubert Dreyfus.

These works will help you figure out what 'tackling AI from a neuroscience' perspective could actually mean.

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#16

Post by pmontra » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:53 AM UTC

Why that pdf in the title? The page is a long html article.

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#17

Post by jessaustin » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 12:32 PM UTC

This simple mathematical logic can account for brain computation across the entire evolutionary spectrum, ranging from the simplest neural networks to the most complex.

That is, further research will investigate how e.g. a mouse turns in a particular direction in a maze before investigating how high-performing humans perform amazing mental feats. It may all be the same at some level, but we have to walk before we can run.

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#18

Post by _0w8t » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 12:53 PM UTC

goldenkek wrote: post #12

visarga wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're just systems that transport our genes into the next generation. Our perception exists mostly to help us find food, avoid dangers and reproduce. Of course we lose a lot of information, because it is irrelevant to us.

Fortunately, evolution selected for intellect even though it might have initially have been past a minimum fitness/energy valley. Id encourage you to rethink this simplistic view that ignores the general tool that developed in order to handle more random and abstract specific solutions to threats.

There is no proof that smarter brain is what was targeted by evolution. It could be that the size of human brain was either purely accidental consequence of other factor or at least was driven by the needs like balancing when walking/running on 2 legs.

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#19

Post by MrQuincle » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 12:57 PM UTC

There are only a few organizational principles that allow the number of groups (K) to scale beyond the number of neurons (N).

Polychronization (http://www.izhikevich.org/publications/spnet.pdf).

This is e.g. different from synfire chains in which the number of groups equals the number of neurons. I don't remember much about the capacity analysis of standard reservoir computing methods (ESN, LSM, ELM), but I thought it was also limited to N.

I'm looking forward to more research in this direction! We as humans build up such long-term memories. This must be a driving factor in AI. A lot of prediction tasks hinge on being able to handle this huge temporal scale.

Currently I'm trying to see if I can formulate chains of transition matrices in MCMC that allow simultaneous search on multiple scales. I feel like the math from multiple angles is converging, exciting! We're gonna solve this in our lifetimes!

Re: Brain Computation Is Organized via Power-of-Two-Based Permutation Logic

#20

Post by vomitcuddle » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 1:21 PM UTC

goldenkek wrote: post #5

Some questions: We act like stimuli are exact things but the brain is all about abstraction. In fact, a certain amount of entropy/information enters your beain every day from vision, smell, touch, etc. Its not stored in full fidelity. There arent enough nuerons or energy for that. So what is lost? Well...whatever isnt abstractable, right? You celebrate your birthday. You remember blowing out the cake in pristine visi…

I don't know about it being a quantum system, but from a psychological standpoint our memories are definitely shaped by the way we perceive and process an event. There was an article posted on HN recently about why we don't remember being babies - some think that language is required for forming memories. The way a shared memory is remembered and re-told by other people (i.e. parents) can also affect our own memory of it.

As a person suffering from social anxiety, my brain tends to memorise events by focusing on small, irrelevant details - which leads to negative self-talk, i.e. "was this thing I said embarrassing? could I have done this differently?, etc."

The way we perceive the world and store our memories is definitely different from one person to another. As a bilingual person, I think some of those differences may indeed be due to a person's native language.