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Autopilot: an open source driving agent

github.com

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Re: Autopilot: an open source driving agent

#11

Post by throwaway729 »

randomdata wrote: post #9
Matthias247 wrote: post #7

Really, a safety critical hard realtime system with control loops on top of Python, a general purpose OS and a CAN-USB adapter? There are reasons why we have realtime operating systems, deterministic bus systems and dedicated CPUs for these kinds of applications. That might be an interesting research, prototyping or simulation platform. But nothing you want to have on a real public road.

> these kinds of applications. As in research projects, which this project expressly states that it is? What are those reasons? It seems like being able to test theories as quickly and cheaply as possible is the top priority. If Python, a general purpose OS, and a CAN-USB adapter is sufficient to conduct the research and satisfies those attributes, it seems like the perfectly logical way forward. I understand why you…

> once your research has concluded and you are now building something for production

I think the rub is that this code appears to be intended for "production" (or at least use on public roads), given the fact that it's published by a company that has tested its products on open roads?

Re: Autopilot: an open source driving agent

#12

Post by 56245623456 »

throwaway729 wrote: post #11
randomdata wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these kinds of applications. As in research projects, which this project expressly states that it is? What are those reasons? It seems like being able to test theories as quickly and cheaply as possible is the top priority. If Python, a general purpose OS, and a CAN-USB adapter is sufficient to conduct the research and satisfies those attributes, it seems like the perfectly logical way forward. I understand why you…

> once your research has concluded and you are now building something for production I think the rub is that this code appears to be intended for "production" (or at least use on public roads), given the fact that it's published by a company that has tested its products on open roads?

It explicitly states: "THIS IS ALPHA QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY. THIS IS NOT A PRODUCT. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH LOCAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS. NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED."

Re: Autopilot: an open source driving agent

#14

Post by pmoriarty »

I read an interesting ethical dilemma related to self-driving cars recently.

Imagine that a self-driving car detects a child in the road, and the only way to avoid hitting the child is to crash the car in to a wall, certainly killing the driver.

What choice should the car be programmed to make?

Who should decide what that choice is?

Who is ethically responsible for that choice?

In a normal car that is driven by a human, the choice is obviously made by that human and the responsibility is theirs. But with self-driving cars it's not so clear.

Re: Autopilot: an open source driving agent

#16

Post by jstanley »

sounds wrote: post #3

I have my reservations about this code. I am a long time free software developer so it is hard to say it but it seems clear to me that a single entity (from a legal perspective) has to "own" the self-driving car software. In the future bits of a self-driving car system may get open-sourced the way Facebook Open Compute has emerged in data centers, but first the proprietary implementations will need to pave the way in…

> it seems clear to me that a single entity (from a legal perspective) has to "own" the self-driving car software.

That's not clear to me at all. It seems clear to me that the person operating the vehicle has ultimate responsibility for how it is driven, whether they're personally driving it or not.

Re: Autopilot: an open source driving agent

#17

Post by shostack »

pmoriarty wrote: post #14

I read an interesting ethical dilemma related to self-driving cars recently. Imagine that a self-driving car detects a child in the road, and the only way to avoid hitting the child is to crash the car in to a wall, certainly killing the driver. What choice should the car be programmed to make? Who should decide what that choice is? Who is ethically responsible for that choice? In a normal car that is driven by a hum…

To further complicate it...would this be standardized? Would a cheap economy car opt to kill the driver, but a Mercedes try to preserve the driver at all cost?

How much say would insurance companies that insure the automakers have? What about the government?

Also, what level of information about how this logic works is necessary to share with a potential buyer to judge them sufficiently informed?

I know I'd sure as hell want to know if there were scenarios in which my car would decide my life was not worth saving so I could do my best to never even come close to making one of those scenarios potentially possible.

Re: Autopilot: an open source driving agent

#18

Post by dchuk »

pmoriarty wrote: post #14

I read an interesting ethical dilemma related to self-driving cars recently. Imagine that a self-driving car detects a child in the road, and the only way to avoid hitting the child is to crash the car in to a wall, certainly killing the driver. What choice should the car be programmed to make? Who should decide what that choice is? Who is ethically responsible for that choice? In a normal car that is driven by a hum…

This is a variation of the classic ethical debate of the Trolley Car Problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

There is really no "right" answer in the absolute sense, but it's a great party trick to toss out there for a group of people to debate over.

Re: Autopilot: an open source driving agent

#19

Post by sixothree »

pmoriarty wrote: post #14

I read an interesting ethical dilemma related to self-driving cars recently. Imagine that a self-driving car detects a child in the road, and the only way to avoid hitting the child is to crash the car in to a wall, certainly killing the driver. What choice should the car be programmed to make? Who should decide what that choice is? Who is ethically responsible for that choice? In a normal car that is driven by a hum…

If it can differentiate between a child and an animal then it's smart enough to add move value judgments such as worth to society (maybe by age). I think the easiest rule is the owner of the vehicle is the most important asset to the vehicle.

Re: Autopilot: an open source driving agent

#20

Post by throwaway729 »

56245623456 wrote: post #12
throwaway729 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> once your research has concluded and you are now building something for production I think the rub is that this code appears to be intended for "production" (or at least use on public roads), given the fact that it's published by a company that has tested its products on open roads?

It explicitly states: "THIS IS ALPHA QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY. THIS IS NOT A PRODUCT. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH LOCAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS. NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED."

And yet comma ai were definitely testing their products on public roads, products which were presumably running this code.
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