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How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

nytimes.com

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Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#11

Post by twr »

acqq wrote: post #3
frozenport wrote: post #2

This article missed a very important point: Iran encouraged and supported the invasion of Iraq. They supplied the evidence and polticians that would topple Sadam and take over his goverment. The Iraq was a major Iranian victory.

> They supplied the evidence Can you please elaborate? Some links?

I assume that's in reference to Ahmed Chalabi. See,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi

https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Pushed-America-Extraordinary/...

I haven't seen the claim proven before, but, I'm not sure it needs to be: the man was an asset to Iran, knowingly or not.

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#13

Post by LordFrith »

finid wrote: post #7

The invasion of Iraq, which the New York Times played a major role in, tore the ME apart. Very soon we'll be blaming some other group for Libya and Syria.

i have been reading lately how the direction of Saudi Arabia changed dramatically after the seizing of the Grand Mosque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#14

Post by LordFrith »

FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #8
frozenport wrote: post #2

This article missed a very important point: Iran encouraged and supported the invasion of Iraq. They supplied the evidence and polticians that would topple Sadam and take over his goverment. The Iraq was a major Iranian victory.

Why is this noteworthy? This is obvious to anyone with even minimal knowledge of the Middle East. There was an Iraq/Iran war in the 80's with casualties in the millions. Iraq, a country with a dominant Shia population was ruled by Saddam and the Baathists, an elite Sunni minority. The conflicts and politics in the Middle East are very complex, but you can paint it with a broad Sunni vs. Shia brush. Before this, there…

I recently listened to a podcast where Jeremy Scahill (the author of the book Dirty Wars) claims Saudi Arabia has been belligerently bombing Yemen to show unruly groups inside of Saudi Arabia that they have the ability to bomb people too.

https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/episode-52-dirty-war...

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#16

Post by acqq »

twr wrote: post #11
acqq wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They supplied the evidence Can you please elaborate? Some links?

I assume that's in reference to Ahmed Chalabi. See, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Pushed-America-Extraordinary/... I haven't seen the claim proven before, but, I'm not sure it needs to be: the man was an asset to Iran, knowingly or not.

Thanks. I don't see anything supporting the theory that he worked for Iran before the 2003 US invasion started.

It's also known that the people who worked with G. W. Bush planned the war in Iraq even before 2001 and that W. asked for some link from Saddam to 9/11 to be produced. Then even lacking it, the link was "suggested" to the public. The politicians and media accepted that narrative.

Now claiming "it was all Iran" just doesn't fit.

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#17

Post by twr »

acqq wrote: post #16
twr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that's in reference to Ahmed Chalabi. See, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Pushed-America-Extraordinary/... I haven't seen the claim proven before, but, I'm not sure it needs to be: the man was an asset to Iran, knowingly or not.

Thanks. I don't see anything supporting the theory that he worked for Iran before the 2003 US invasion started. It's also known that the people who worked with G. W. Bush planned the war in Iraq even before 2001 and that W. asked for some link from Saddam to 9/11 to be produced. Then even lacking it, the link was "suggested" to the public. The politicians and media accepted that narrative. Now claiming "it was all Ir…

Yes. For the record, I agree with what you wrote. Actual evidence suggests that American and European intelligence agencies knew that the justification for the war was being manufactured; Chalabi was simply a convenient scapegoat.

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#18

Post by devoply »

finid wrote: post #7

The invasion of Iraq, which the New York Times played a major role in, tore the ME apart. Very soon we'll be blaming some other group for Libya and Syria.

The Saudis and Kuwaitis gave the US 30 billion dollars to attack Iraq for the first gulf war. After giving Iraq a loan of 25 billion to attack Iran, which basically put Iraq in a difficult financial position which the Kuwaitis and the Saudis would not help it get out of it by cutting their supply, so he threatened them with war http://www.nytimes.com/1990/07/18/business/iraq-threatens-em... But at the end of the day who gave Saudis all this money, which ended with a bunch of backward tribal nomads running international political schemes? The Americans built Saudis from scratch, and their little monster now rocks the cradle.

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#19

Post by nickik »

I really disagree with this article. This is the sort of fundamentalist thinking that Americans trained themselves in during the Cold War.

> Behind much of the Middle East’s chaos — the wars in Syria and Yemen

Both of these wars are domestic in nature. In any Civil War parties naturally seek to ally themselves with outside powers. The powers then see the opportunity to win big for small(ish) cash, or at least avoid losing an ally.

It is true that Iran and the Saudis are fighting for supremacy, but it is not true that all the wars in the middle east are because of that.

Its equally wrong to force all of this into a even deeper into a pure sectarian conflict. Neither the Saudis or the Iranians are above supporting people that they ideologically disagree with it is politically useful to them, even people who would attack and kill them if they could.

This article tries hard and fails to make everything about Iran. Saudi Arabia going against the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, clearly that is because of Iran. The Saudis have enough reason to make sure they have allies in Egypt even when Iran is not a factor. Every countries ties not to have enemies on all sides.

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#20

Post by nickik »

devoply wrote: post #18
finid wrote: post #7

The invasion of Iraq, which the New York Times played a major role in, tore the ME apart. Very soon we'll be blaming some other group for Libya and Syria.

The Saudis and Kuwaitis gave the US 30 billion dollars to attack Iraq for the first gulf war. After giving Iraq a loan of 25 billion to attack Iran, which basically put Iraq in a difficult financial position which the Kuwaitis and the Saudis would not help it get out of it by cutting their supply, so he threatened them with war http://www.nytimes.com/1990/07/18/business/iraq-threatens-em... But at the end of the day…

> Kuwaitis and the Saudis would not help it get out of.

There is long distance between 'would not help' and 'drop all your debt claims against me'.

Nobody had forced Saddam to invade Iran. He took the risk and took the debt knowingly. He then turned around and and claimed 'I did all of this for you, so I don't have to pay anything back'.

The Americans did help to build the Saudis, but the Saudis would almost certainly have succeeded without the Americans as well. Saudi Arabia was never a America child.

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