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Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

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Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#11

Post by huherto »

jamesbressi wrote: post #5

Does the findings in this article surprise anyone? No? Good. I'm not a hippy, but let's get over this b.s. "War on Drugs" and begin to use our common sense when dealing with social issues and impeding on natural rights.

I don't support the use of drugs either. But we are living very difficult times and a lot of truly innocent people are suffering. We need to find a better way, but the first step is to have a better understanding of the problem and that is why I think these articles are good. I'm writing this from one of the most violent places in Mexico.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#12

Post by yummyfajitas »

param wrote: post #10
Anon84 wrote: post #8

I'm portuguese (lived there until I left for my PhD a few years ago) and I've always found this system a bit odd. You can own it and use it, but you can't produce it, sell it or distribute it. Maybe the government believes in the spontaneous generation of drugs? A couple of quick points, though: rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped This isn't directly connected with the decriminaliza…

>> You can own it and use it, but you can't produce it, sell it or distribute it. Maybe the government believes in the spontaneous generation of drugs? I am sure the point is for the Govt. to prosecute the producer, not the consumer. This is similar to some countries outlawing 'consumption' of prostitution services, but not offering of such services.

That's something I've never understood. How come the drug buyer is the victim, and so is the sex seller?

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#13

Post by iaskwhy »

I'm from Portugal. There's something important missing from the article which might be useful to explain why there were so many people using drugs in Portugal. Before 1975, the country was under a dictatorship and drug use was obviously low. Then there was a revolution and people were free to the outside world's culture. On the years following the revolution, young adults were pretty much amazed by all the things you couldn't see in Portugal before like Coke or rock music or, right!, drugs. I don't know many people with the age of my parents whom didn't try drugs, soft or hard, back then.

This behavior was also common on the generation which was born during the revolution, like my brother. There was more information on the end of the 80s and teens were still trying soft drugs but starting to avoid hard drugs. I can't really explain why this happened but I know bad stories about drugs were all the time on the news. For instance, in my house my father always said: "If you ever try drugs don't ever come back." He never knew about my brother but there was a cousin in the family completely addicted, he died recently.

I'm on my twenties so I'd say I'm from the generation after my brother's. I never tried drugs but all my friends did, no exception. They just aren't addicted, don't know why. It's pretty common for them to carry small dosages of marijuana which are allowed by law but there's one thing they don't know: it's legal, like the article states. It has to be a really small dosage but it's enough for you if you're not addicted. And that's what's funny: I never met anyone who knew it was legal (and I knew it because my brother worked at the courtyard) and everyone still looks at Amsterdam like the holy place for drugs in Europe. It's like a taboo, nobody is supposed to talk about it being legal, and it works I guess.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#14

Post by ErrantX »

I'm slowly coming round to this as a good idea - at least to trial. If you have the requisite support (like in Portugal) to go with it and are not just decriminalizing possession alone then it should work well.

The only problem I have is that it might encourage the use of drugs; which is potentially dangerous for people.

Worth a trial for sure.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#15

Post by CWuestefeld »

jamesbressi wrote: post #5

Does the findings in this article surprise anyone? No? Good. I'm not a hippy, but let's get over this b.s. "War on Drugs" and begin to use our common sense when dealing with social issues and impeding on natural rights.

While I strongly support your conclusion in this case, I'm infuriated every time I hear a call for a policy change based on "common sense". As far as I can tell, this is just a euphemism for "I am unable to articulate a rational basis for my position", or even "I refuse to let the actual evidence interfere with my position".

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#16

Post by anigbrowl »

anigbrowl wrote: post #2

2009 - old story is old. Flagged. Edit: it's not that I don't like the story, which I do. It's that we already discussed it here when it came out in 2009.

FYI, exactly 1 year ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=580060

Same time.com story, 220 days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=828538

Original article, 407 days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=516678

It is an interesting issue, and an interesting policy result, and one we should consider adopting here. I am wholeheartedly in favor of reducing government interference in people's personal lives, and I can even consider it hack-worthy insofar as it involves tinkering with legal rather than computer code.

But this particular story is no longer news. Not included are about 10 other HN threads referencing the same article, which you can find by going to google and searching for 'site:news.ycombinator.com drugs portugal'. This gets posted in some fashion every 90 days or so.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#17

Post by epochwolf »

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #7
anigbrowl wrote: post #2

2009 - old story is old. Flagged. Edit: it's not that I don't like the story, which I do. It's that we already discussed it here when it came out in 2009.

I upvoted the comment. This is a "news" site, not a "recycled story" site. There's enough new stuff coming through the firehose that we don't need to start reposting the Internet from a year ago.

Just because something is old doesn't mean it isn't relevant or interesting.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#18

Post by mey »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #15
jamesbressi wrote: post #5

Does the findings in this article surprise anyone? No? Good. I'm not a hippy, but let's get over this b.s. "War on Drugs" and begin to use our common sense when dealing with social issues and impeding on natural rights.

While I strongly support your conclusion in this case, I'm infuriated every time I hear a call for a policy change based on "common sense". As far as I can tell, this is just a euphemism for "I am unable to articulate a rational basis for my position", or even "I refuse to let the actual evidence interfere with my position".

Here is my understanding on why decriminalization of drugs is beneficial.

First, legitimate competition from suppliers would drive down costs, forcing high risk/high reward illegal operations from other countries out of the market. How can a Mexican drug cartel compete against grand-ma and her backyard?

Secondly, what is the violent side of drug activitey? Again my understanding is that it's mostly revolved around protecting/hiding illegal production, and moving the drugs to a dealer. If you eliminate that supply chain, that vector of violent activity would be cut off.

Thirdly, why do people use drugs. I see three distinct reasons, recreational, escapism, addiction. The first two can easily lead to the third. The second two could be helped/resolved through rehabilitation programs, or solving the cause to need of escapism. (8-14% unemployment can't be helping). The first case, there isn't much a reason to have otherwise productive members of society be in jail.

I don't believe that drugs are marked as illegal because of fear from pharmacy companies, or from paper/cotton companies. I believe it is that same reaction as prohibition, blue collar laws. Bad stuff can happen, bad stuff does happen, and government officials wish to prevent that from happening, on the immediate time line, without generally considering that the long term effects can be disastrous.

One additional thing. As part of decriminalization and in addition to rehabilitation programs, the government should be watching new recreational drugs entering the market, and doing studies to determine the health risks / benefits of these fringe drugs. I seems that like sniffing glue, kids seem to assume that just because a drug has not been classified as an illegal substance, it somehow isn't dangerous, when the case is really that the government is rather slow to address anything of relevance in a timely fashion. (Except steroid abuse in MLB, and communists)

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#19

Post by trominos »

I'm in favor of sweeping decriminalization (and legalization), but the data in this article -- hand-picked, no doubt, by the Cato Institute -- barely suggest correlation between decriminalization and declining drug use rates and stop way before causation.

The only conclusion you can legitimately draw from this, I think, is that decriminalization doesn't result in all hell breaking loose in at least the short term. Which is great! But I'd like to see a more substantial (and, if possible, more neutral) study.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#20

Post by Qz »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #12
param wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You can own it and use it, but you can't produce it, sell it or distribute it. Maybe the government believes in the spontaneous generation of drugs? I am sure the point is for the Govt. to prosecute the producer, not the consumer. This is similar to some countries outlawing 'consumption' of prostitution services, but not offering of such services.

That's something I've never understood. How come the drug buyer is the victim, and so is the sex seller ?

When you learn how many of the women in prostitution are forced into that work by sex traffickers or sheer poverty, it's not hard to understand. The sex 'seller' often isn't the one who gets the money.
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