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Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

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Re: Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

#11

Post by ng12 »

btcboss wrote: post #8
ng12 wrote: post #4

> Secretary Clinton WON THE POPULAR VOTE and should be President. The Electoral College is in the constitution. The popular vote has never been a method for electing the president by design.

As Alexander Hamilton writes in “The Federalist Papers,” the Constitution is designed to ensure “that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.”

Exactly. Hamilton (and most founding fathers) distrusted direct democracy. A more reasonable petition would be to go the other way -- get states to elect real Electors instead of making the presidential race pseudo-populist.

Re: Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

#12

Post by MrZongle2 »

k8t wrote: post #10
ng12 wrote: post #4

> Secretary Clinton WON THE POPULAR VOTE and should be President. The Electoral College is in the constitution. The popular vote has never been a method for electing the president by design.

I don't particularly feel strong about this petition, but I don't think the argument "because it's the constitution" is a good one. I can imagine the constitution being outdated for certain reasons and I don't think it's a big deal to adapt to the changes.

"I don't particularly feel strong about this petition, but I don't think the argument "because it's the constitution" is a good one."

I respectfully disagree. I think the fact that it is in the Constitution should give anyone pause about changing it. That's not to say that it should not (or could not) be changed, but this isn't just something that an Executive Order by the current President could change. This is a Congressional responsibility.

This petition is absurd and pointless.

Re: Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

#14

Post by k8t »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #12
k8t wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't particularly feel strong about this petition, but I don't think the argument "because it's the constitution" is a good one. I can imagine the constitution being outdated for certain reasons and I don't think it's a big deal to adapt to the changes.

"I don't particularly feel strong about this petition, but I don't think the argument "because it's the constitution" is a good one." I respectfully disagree. I think the fact that it is in the Constitution should give anyone pause about changing it. That's not to say that it should not (or could not) be changed, but this isn't just something that an Executive Order by the current President could change. This is a Co…

You're right, I agree. This petition is pretty absurd, especially because the election is over (it would've had more substance if it was a non-election year). Just wanted to point out that "because it's the constitution" shouldn't be a discussion-stopper.

Re: Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

#15

Post by bdcravens »

aglavine wrote: post #6

A different system would have leaded to different outcome. You can't expect voters behaving the same when the rules change. Also, Arrow's theorem is valid for any system

Exactly. Texas and California were pretty much in the bag from the get-go; I'm sure if winning the state was irrelevant, more voters may have come out.

Re: Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

#16

Post by btcboss »

ng12 wrote: post #11
btcboss wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Alexander Hamilton writes in “The Federalist Papers,” the Constitution is designed to ensure “that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.”

Exactly. Hamilton (and most founding fathers) distrusted direct democracy. A more reasonable petition would be to go the other way -- get states to elect real Electors instead of making the presidential race pseudo-populist.

Not sure I follow what you are arguing for. But what I am trying to say is that the EC is designed to protect us from people EXACTLY like trump. That is its purpose. It has nothing to do with Hillary getting the popular vote, although that does add to the argument.

Re: Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

#17

Post by serge2k »

1. She won a plurality of the popular vote. Yes, it's winning but it's not even a majority.

2. You don't get to just toss out rules because you lost. 3 days ago people were shitting on trump for this type of rhetoric.

3. The fact that the electoral college exists fucks up the popular vote. A republican has no voice in California, and a democrat has none in Texas. Having it be an actual popular vote would change voter behaviour pretty drastically.

4. The electoral college is not a system which values votes equally. A vote in California is worth less than a vote in wyoming. Some people like that because of the idea of tyranny of the majority. Some people say that's ridiculous and a popular vote is the only good system. Figure it out for yourself, I say that geographic based representation is why we have the senate. Of course I like the democrats and the coastal population centers would be a massive boost.

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Intersta...

6. Fight for an amendment. Ranked voting in a popular vote based presidential election? Guess what not you can vote for bernie and johnson first before your vote finally goes to Clinton, instead of being whiny and ruining things for the rest of us.

Re: Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

#18

Post by serge2k »

ng12 wrote: post #4

> Secretary Clinton WON THE POPULAR VOTE and should be President. The Electoral College is in the constitution. The popular vote has never been a method for electing the president by design.

and? The constitution has had loads of dumb things in it that have had to be changed.

Americans seem to worship this 250 year old piece of paper. They put in an amendment process for good reasons.

Re: Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

#19

Post by bdcravens »

serge2k wrote: post #18
ng12 wrote: post #4

> Secretary Clinton WON THE POPULAR VOTE and should be President. The Electoral College is in the constitution. The popular vote has never been a method for electing the president by design.

and? The constitution has had loads of dumb things in it that have had to be changed. Americans seem to worship this 250 year old piece of paper. They put in an amendment process for good reasons.

Exactly. So let's change via amendment, not via a petition website. Line up 2/3 of congress to propose, and then 3/4 of the states to ratify.

Re: Use the Electoral College the way it was intended

#20

Post by loco5niner »

k8t wrote: post #10
ng12 wrote: post #4

> Secretary Clinton WON THE POPULAR VOTE and should be President. The Electoral College is in the constitution. The popular vote has never been a method for electing the president by design.

I don't particularly feel strong about this petition, but I don't think the argument "because it's the constitution" is a good one. I can imagine the constitution being outdated for certain reasons and I don't think it's a big deal to adapt to the changes.

I think it's a bad idea to change the constitution just because an election didn't turn out the way some people wanted it to.
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