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World Population Growth

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Re: World Population Growth

#11

All I can say is, if you want to maintain that standard of living in western democracies, you'd better get used to immigration.

Can you elaborate? I'm pretty in favour of open borders as an immigrant myself but that statement could do with some supporting evidence.

It's not so much a question of evidence as basic math.

Imagine a society with 100 people. A working adult can create 50 widgets per year, and there's 15 kids and 5 retirees. The economy produce 80 * 50 = 4000 widgets per year, which gives a per capita income of 40 widgets. You can have whatever tax, welfare, or income redistribution policies you like, but there's only 4000 widgets to go around.

Great. Now let's say 5 new kids are born, the 15 existing kids become adults, 30 adults retire, and the 5 existing retirees die. Bonus: we got 3% better at making widgets, so a working adult makes 51.5 widgets. We now have 100 people, 5 kids, 30 retirees, and 65 working adults. Total widget production = 65 * 51.5 = 3,347.5 widgets per year, or a per capita income of ~33.5 widgets. Again, policies can change the distribution, but not the total number.

What we're seeing is that if an aging workforce lowers the overall workforce participation rate, as a society, we get poorer. If productivity increases, as a society we get richer. It's just a question of which change is larger, and in the US (and Europe, and much of Asia) the answer is the aging workforce. The demographics are clear and brutal.

The most critical metric is the ratio of current workers to retirees; that number is climbing and is going to continue without a policy change that somehow reduces the number of retirees, or increases the numbers of workers. Large scale skilled immigration might do the latter, but failing that, we're basically out of ideas.

This article spells it out fairly nicely I think: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-10-10/innovatio...

Re: World Population Growth

#13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? I'm pretty in favour of open borders as an immigrant myself but that statement could do with some supporting evidence.

It's not so much a question of evidence as basic math. Imagine a society with 100 people. A working adult can create 50 widgets per year, and there's 15 kids and 5 retirees. The economy produce 80 * 50 = 4000 widgets per year, which gives a per capita income of 40 widgets. You can have whatever tax, welfare, or income redistribution policies you like, but there's only 4000 widgets to go around. Great. Now let's say 5…

What you're describing is a pyramid scheme. Get more and more new people in to pay for those already there. If immigration falls or stop rising you suddenly have a problem.

A more robust, sustainable solution is to improve productivity via other means (including automation).

Re: World Population Growth

#14
If there are heritable traits that lead to people having more kids in a developed world environment then at some point evolution will take over and we'll start to see exponential growth again.

Re: World Population Growth

#15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? I'm pretty in favour of open borders as an immigrant myself but that statement could do with some supporting evidence.

It's not so much a question of evidence as basic math. Imagine a society with 100 people. A working adult can create 50 widgets per year, and there's 15 kids and 5 retirees. The economy produce 80 * 50 = 4000 widgets per year, which gives a per capita income of 40 widgets. You can have whatever tax, welfare, or income redistribution policies you like, but there's only 4000 widgets to go around. Great. Now let's say 5…

This ignores productivity gains and need.

In much of the west we have unemployed adults who are making no widgets, and robots are starting to make widgets too.

Your allegory works for full employment and constant productivity.

Re: World Population Growth

#16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? I'm pretty in favour of open borders as an immigrant myself but that statement could do with some supporting evidence.

It's not so much a question of evidence as basic math. Imagine a society with 100 people. A working adult can create 50 widgets per year, and there's 15 kids and 5 retirees. The economy produce 80 * 50 = 4000 widgets per year, which gives a per capita income of 40 widgets. You can have whatever tax, welfare, or income redistribution policies you like, but there's only 4000 widgets to go around. Great. Now let's say 5…

That basic math illustrates things nicely but hides the real picture.

There's about 2 million people working in agriculture and 1 million working in mining in the US:

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm

And about 5 million working in the energy industry:

http://energy.gov/articles/doe-releases-first-annual-nationa...

Our widgets are built by machines.

This too is a facile picture of the situation, but our material abundance isn't particularly under threat from contraction of the work force.

Re: World Population Growth

#17

With the rise of antibiotic resistant bacteria I wonder if this projection of exponential growth and then plateau will happen sooner.

The population was rising before the first antibiotic was discovered so I'm guessing that it won't make all that much of a difference. In general public sanitation made a much larger difference in the reduction in death by infectious disease since the 19th century than medicine has.

Re: World Population Growth

#18
post #13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much a question of evidence as basic math. Imagine a society with 100 people. A working adult can create 50 widgets per year, and there's 15 kids and 5 retirees. The economy produce 80 * 50 = 4000 widgets per year, which gives a per capita income of 40 widgets. You can have whatever tax, welfare, or income redistribution policies you like, but there's only 4000 widgets to go around. Great. Now let's say 5…

What you're describing is a pyramid scheme. Get more and more new people in to pay for those already there. If immigration falls or stop rising you suddenly have a problem. A more robust, sustainable solution is to improve productivity via other means (including automation).

or just be ok with having less shit.

Re: World Population Growth

#19

With the rise of antibiotic resistant bacteria I wonder if this projection of exponential growth and then plateau will happen sooner.

The population was rising before the first antibiotic was discovered so I'm guessing that it won't make all that much of a difference. In general public sanitation made a much larger difference in the reduction in death by infectious disease since the 19th century than medicine has.

And ironically Public Health is the lowest, least respected medical specialization. Doctors practicing that earn like plumbers or construction workers. Yet we all own them our collective health and well-being.

Re: World Population Growth

#20
post #4

All I can say is, if you want to maintain that standard of living in western democracies, you'd better get used to immigration.

What is the connection between high living standards and immigration?

My simplistic version is that our economy is basically a ponzi scheme that needs new entrants to fuel the "growth".
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