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DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

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Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#11
post #5

TL;DR: Dwarf Fortress fan learns about DNA from popular science articles, forms comprehensively superficial theory of life, the universe and everything, based on analogy to computer code and his estimation that nothing could be more complex than Dwarf Fortress. I've never really thought a quote from an Adam Sandler movie was one to be repeated, but "Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiot…

That's a bit harsh. The analogy made is not an uncommon one, but that doesn't mean there isn't some merit to the idea. I appreciate that people are at least trying to learn new things and form their own ideas.

The analogy is horribly flawed, especially the bio compiler metaphor. In silico automatons are primitive in complexity when compared to processes in simple organisms.

Disclaimer: Have seen both the IT/CS and biotech side of things.

Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#12

TL;DR: Dwarf Fortress fan learns about DNA from popular science articles, forms comprehensively superficial theory of life, the universe and everything, based on analogy to computer code and his estimation that nothing could be more complex than Dwarf Fortress. I've never really thought a quote from an Adam Sandler movie was one to be repeated, but "Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiot…

Woo. Its full of Woo. Now let me back in Hal

Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#13
post #5

TL;DR: Dwarf Fortress fan learns about DNA from popular science articles, forms comprehensively superficial theory of life, the universe and everything, based on analogy to computer code and his estimation that nothing could be more complex than Dwarf Fortress. I've never really thought a quote from an Adam Sandler movie was one to be repeated, but "Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiot…

That's a bit harsh. The analogy made is not an uncommon one, but that doesn't mean there isn't some merit to the idea. I appreciate that people are at least trying to learn new things and form their own ideas.

I agree that my post was a bit snarky—what can I say, I hadn't had my coffee yet. If the author is a high school kid, he has my apologies for the snark, and encouragement to dig much deeper into the subject matter as well as what is logically and rhetorically sound, and take another pass at his theory.

That said, there's an epidemic of know-it-all-ness in this industry, and this article doesn't pass even the most cursory of reviews of Real Information™. I agree that the analogy is commonplace, but the reason its an analogy and not a model is that it breaks down rapidly under scrutiny.

Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#14
post #5

TL;DR: Dwarf Fortress fan learns about DNA from popular science articles, forms comprehensively superficial theory of life, the universe and everything, based on analogy to computer code and his estimation that nothing could be more complex than Dwarf Fortress. I've never really thought a quote from an Adam Sandler movie was one to be repeated, but "Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiot…

That's a bit harsh. The analogy made is not an uncommon one, but that doesn't mean there isn't some merit to the idea. I appreciate that people are at least trying to learn new things and form their own ideas.

While I agree it's a bit harsh, some of these extrapolations had me saying, "Oh really?" to myself.

> Biology is one of the last fields of science adopting the tech revolution by switching from analog to digital analysis. DNA has only recently been discovered. DNA sequencing is in its earliest stages.

> There is not enough space to fit “software” hereditary behavioral definitions into DNA. If Dwarf Fortress comes close to encoding basic behavioral patterns requiring 10 megabytes of data, we must look for a chunk of genetic data of that size.

> Good programmers try to restrict their functions to no more than 6 parameters when writing code. Thus, a driving system with learning ability depends on over 40,000 programmatic functions. Those functions operate with only a dozen of sensors, wheels, and breaks. What if you had to write self-learning software for controlling all the muscle groups in an ant organism? Clearly it would require much more than 790mb for a human or 117mb for an ant of data space to store.

> The “software” that runs the ant must include basic instincts, sensory recognition patterns, social interactions, spacial awareness, navigation routines, some learning ability, and threat estimation in its ancestral memory in addition to all the hardware schematics. Each muscle group must work in tandem with the senses. How much data would that amount of code require? An easy way to estimate it is to simulate those behaviors on your computer. Having some familiarity with multiple programming languages, I would guess that 117mb is totally insufficient for all that.

> If complex data compression is shown to play a major role in the life of an organism, my argument could be falsified. At the same time, the field of biology would be revolutionized.

> One might object that a negative proposition of the form “x does not explain y” is empirically indefensible. The form of my argument, however, follows another pattern: “there is not enough observable x in y.” Such statements are empirically demonstrable and empirically falsifiable. For example, the statement “there are fewer than 10 goats in this wood” is empirical. Just search the wood to confirm it. By analogy, we should expect at least as many discoveries of genes controlling behaviors as we have for protein generation and regulatory genes. But we do not.

Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#15
post #3

I don't for a moment believe that Dwarf Fortress contains a true 10MB of irreducibly complex behavioural code. Rather this is simply an indication that our computer languages and compression systems are much less efficient than what nature uses for DNA.

"I don't for a moment believe that Dwarf Fortress contains a true 10MB of irreducibly complex behavioural code. Rather this is simply an indication that our computer languages and compression systems are much less efficient than what nature uses for DNA."

You can test an information stream for entropy and you can also determine whether there is any entropy left in a compressed information stream.

So while I think we should certainly respect the accumulated wisdom and refinement that trillions of cell divisions have stored up over the eons, it's not obvious that "nature" has better compression than we do.

Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#16
If I were going to engage in the same sort of wide-eyed speculation the author of the piece is happy to deploy then I would say he's looking at the wrong level. The DNA contains instructions for growing a brain; the structure of the brain encodes for the hereditary behaviors. Of course, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#17
I don't believe it's a fair comparison... modern CPUs can run, by definition, a pretty basic range of operations, and every intent has to be encoded in a extremely complex sequence of commands. Given a certain CPU architecture and a certain algorithm to implement, someone might be able to properly infer the expected size of a compiled binary. But, by pushing the concept to the absurd, one day we might build a super-sophisticated CPU that runs code at such an high level of abstraction that the Dawrf Fortress game is encoded in a single binary digit, whose sole meaning is "Play Dwarf Fortress". Between the 10MB binary running in modern CPUs and the single 1-bit binary running in our hypotetical "super-CPU" stand all the possible devices that have been existed and that will be ever invented... How can you place a living cell in this scale? Unless you can do it, any discussion about binary size is simply pointless...

Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#18
post #10

Kind of strange that there's no mention of actual behavioral genomics research here. Aside from the quip that: > Scientists have found some genetic code that contributes to hereditary behaviors, but the bulk of it is unlikely to ever be found. Why? Because it plainly does not fit. This is plainly not true. We've found lots of evidence for the genomic basis of hereditary behaviors. See Genome-wide Complex Trait Analys…

Right! It's obvious he's lacking some (relatively) recent information. And he vastly overestimates our ability to do things like simulate biochemical interactions.

Is he arguing that Dwarf Fortress has codes for souls? Because I feel like his argument and example say exactly the opposite.

Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#19
post #15
post #3

I don't for a moment believe that Dwarf Fortress contains a true 10MB of irreducibly complex behavioural code. Rather this is simply an indication that our computer languages and compression systems are much less efficient than what nature uses for DNA.

"I don't for a moment believe that Dwarf Fortress contains a true 10MB of irreducibly complex behavioural code. Rather this is simply an indication that our computer languages and compression systems are much less efficient than what nature uses for DNA." You can test an information stream for entropy and you can also determine whether there is any entropy left in a compressed information stream. So while I think we…

> You can test an information stream for entropy and you can also determine whether there is any entropy left in a compressed information stream.

I don't think that measures the thing that needs to be measured here. Kolmogorov complexity is famously uncomputable; the output of a pseudo-random number generator will be high-entropy but "really" only contains a tiny amount of information (the initial seed).

And more to the point, DNA certainly contains more than 10MB of entropy; the claim is that most of this DNA is junk. Fair enough, but I expect the 10MB of DF code is also mostly junk: irrelevant details that the programmers were unnecessarily required to specify or the compiler picked out, rather than actually expressing the details of behaviour.

Re: DDwarf Fortress Defies Materialism

#20
post #4

simulating complex behavior requires at least 10mb of data The author has not shown that that much is required. At most, the author has shown that it has been done with that much. Seeing as having only thousands of states is apparently enough to make a Turing machine's behavior independent of ZFC ( http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725 ), I really doubt this "10 megabyte" lower bound.

OP's mind would probably be absolutely blown by the demo scene if he thinks 10MB of data is impressive. Also, the NN example is interesting because no one in deep learning thinks that you actually need all those parameters: most NNs can be shrunk by 90%+ with some simple tweaks like quantizing neural weights and pruning them (speculation is that you need to train large parameterized NNs to make the path through high-dimensional space to the optimal program smooth enough for gradient descent to travel).
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