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To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

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Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#11

Post by jskulski »

andrewclunn wrote: post #6

This is a very interesting and well written piece, but I'm going to have to disagree, as (like false modesty) the tactic quickly becomes identifiable as such and turns people off.

I agree, insincere flattery (maybe even condescension?) will be read and figured out.

To me, this is sort of inline with How to Win Friends and Influence People. Taken at face value and just following the motions will be ineffectual at best, offensive at worst.

I do think there is value to be gained, like with HTWFIP, that if done sincerely I very valuable for both sides. If I actually have to understand your view, that opens my mind.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#12

Post by smallnamespace »

andrewclunn wrote: post #6

This is a very interesting and well written piece, but I'm going to have to disagree, as (like false modesty) the tactic quickly becomes identifiable as such and turns people off.

The key is to honestly want to find common ground with the other person, just like the antidote to false modesty is to actually be modest.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#13

Post by orsenthil »

I had this failure to make a family member see a particular point of view. The person had taken a stance, that would be harmful to the family, but yet rational arguments did not work out. The person had something to gain, I don't know what, by causing this harm, the person went ahead with that.

Have you ever encountered this? If yes, does rational argument and persuation work with people who don't care?

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#14

Post by Mendenhall »

andrewclunn wrote: post #6

This is a very interesting and well written piece, but I'm going to have to disagree, as (like false modesty) the tactic quickly becomes identifiable as such and turns people off.

I think you may be misunderstanding in that there is nothing false about it. You are actually finding that which you agree upon.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#15

Post by EGreg »

Daniel Dennett is a curious character. A philosopher at Tufts, he wrote this:

How to compose a successful critical commentary:

You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). You should mention anything you have learned from your target. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#16

Post by rayiner »

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively present a counter-argument that has a chance of being persuasive.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#17

Post by nate »

A very similar effect is the "backfire effect"

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect

I've been spending a lot of time focusing on this with customer support. When a customer is hot about a problem it doesn't help at all to show facts about anything. It really helps though to begin with a place of empathy of how you understand how they feel if you were in a similar situation. For example, had a great experience with Indinero recently when I was hot about a problem. Their customer service rep though approached it exactly from how he would feel the same way as me in such a place and here's how they'll fix it. If he just started with the "here's how we'll do better" I don't think he have gotten through to me in the situation. I've been using this a ton with problems ranging from dealing with my 2 year old to hot topics for customer support, and it's really impressive how well it works.

Yes, in many ways it's simply practicing empathy. But for some reason without thinking about the tactic folks who want to be practicing empathy don't seem to get to that point.

FWIW: I talk about this topic more in depth in video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzGOdE92z9I

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#19

Post by teen »

rayiner wrote: post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

i would argue that most people are in fact idiots

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#20

Post by espeed »

Empathy and perspective. Empathy [1] (cognitive empathy) is the ability to put yourself in someone's shoes and see things from their perspective. Not everyone has the ability to empathize -- we often believe our level of empathy is like that of everyone else, but this is not the case.

Cluster B personality types [2], those with Asperger's [3] or on the autistic spectrum, and some with ADHD lack the ability to empathize. Recent research out of Berkeley has show than medication can help those with ADHD access their Executive Function and gain their ability to empathize [4].

In one of the comments on [4], Dr Charles Parker describes empathy as a "two-step process": "Empathy is a higher order function, more evolved with effective PFC [prefrontal cortex] activity than sympathy. Why? Sympathy indicates a certain subjective, feeling level, ability to emotionally reach across the room and identify with the pain of another. The only problem for those practicing sympathy is that, more often than not, they only take that first identification step, and too often get stuck in the other person’s pain. They can’t leave, and become emotionally lost over there. Empathy, on the other hand, requires good PFC Executive Function, with a metacognitively active two step process: 1. Trial identification with the other, and 2. Return to one’s full self for objective management of the other’s challenges. Good next-step advice doesn’t often arise from sympathy, but does often arise from empathetic considerations more objectively managed outside of a purely emotional reaction."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_B_personality_disorder...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

[4] http://adhdrollercoaster.org/adhd-and-relationships/adhd-imp...

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