Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment • Hacker News Board

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#11

Post by efaref » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:04 AM UTC

jomamaxx wrote: post #9

hacksonx wrote: post #7

Perhaps not the biggest reason behind the refusal but the fact that it is mentioned warrants discussion. Che Guevara is said to have travelled to the Congo to train Guerrilla militia there and stopped when instead of focussing on training, the people focused on voodoo magic to protect them. A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided…

"to educate the people" It's not 'reading and arithmetic' that's the problem. It's a basic lack of intelligent social organization across the board. It's the thousand little bits of behaviour that make you 'civilized' vis-a-vis other cultures. I'm weary of the using the word 'civilized' because it sounds a little colonialist, but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some de…

You know things are crazy when "civilization" becomes a dirty word.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#12

Post by labster » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:10 AM UTC

When I first read the headline, I saw "Many Keynesians refusing basic income experiment", which confused me because I thought Keynes fans would totally go for UBI.

But yeah, free money looks a lot like colonialism if you squint. I can see people avoiding it. You get $500 a month now, and then 3 months later, they come asking for a "favor" in return, and it would be a shame if something happened to your kneecaps. This is not reality of course, but let's just say I've been trained to avoid emails offering me free money in the past.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#13

Post by bsbechtel » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:19 AM UTC

Maybe people really do have an innate sense of ethics that tell them if they're receiving free money, it means it's being taken from somewhere else.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#14

Post by gotofritz » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:22 AM UTC

hacksonx wrote: post #7

Perhaps not the biggest reason behind the refusal but the fact that it is mentioned warrants discussion. Che Guevara is said to have travelled to the Congo to train Guerrilla militia there and stopped when instead of focussing on training, the people focused on voodoo magic to protect them. A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided…

> train gorilla militia

that's a hell of a freudian slip...

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#15

Post by x1798DE » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:26 AM UTC

efaref wrote: post #11

jomamaxx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"to educate the people" It's not 'reading and arithmetic' that's the problem. It's a basic lack of intelligent social organization across the board. It's the thousand little bits of behaviour that make you 'civilized' vis-a-vis other cultures. I'm weary of the using the word 'civilized' because it sounds a little colonialist, but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some de…

You know things are crazy when "civilization" becomes a dirty word.

I don't know if GP meant civilization was a dirty word, just that it's an overloaded term, because it at least partially means, "ordered society" and partly it means "society ordered like ours". In this context, taking it to mean the second meaning could be incredibly arrogant, so I think it's reasonable to be careful about one's meaning.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#16

Post by vacri » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:32 AM UTC

jomamaxx wrote: post #9

hacksonx wrote: post #7

Perhaps not the biggest reason behind the refusal but the fact that it is mentioned warrants discussion. Che Guevara is said to have travelled to the Congo to train Guerrilla militia there and stopped when instead of focussing on training, the people focused on voodoo magic to protect them. A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided…

"to educate the people" It's not 'reading and arithmetic' that's the problem. It's a basic lack of intelligent social organization across the board. It's the thousand little bits of behaviour that make you 'civilized' vis-a-vis other cultures. I'm weary of the using the word 'civilized' because it sounds a little colonialist, but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some de…

> but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues.

All across Europe and North America (especially the US), people regularly turn to magic spells (praying). These are the places that us westerners think of as the primary 'civilised' societies, but 'magic' is commonplace there as well.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#17

Post by babuskov » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:32 AM UTC

hacksonx wrote: post #7

Perhaps not the biggest reason behind the refusal but the fact that it is mentioned warrants discussion. Che Guevara is said to have travelled to the Congo to train Guerrilla militia there and stopped when instead of focussing on training, the people focused on voodoo magic to protect them. A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided…

> travelled to the Congo to train gorilla militia

I'm sure there are many gorillas in Congo, but I doubt he was there to train a gorilla militia.

Guerilla, perhaps?

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#18

Post by jacobolus » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:35 AM UTC

jomamaxx wrote: post #9

hacksonx wrote: post #7

Perhaps not the biggest reason behind the refusal but the fact that it is mentioned warrants discussion. Che Guevara is said to have travelled to the Congo to train Guerrilla militia there and stopped when instead of focussing on training, the people focused on voodoo magic to protect them. A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided…

"to educate the people" It's not 'reading and arithmetic' that's the problem. It's a basic lack of intelligent social organization across the board. It's the thousand little bits of behaviour that make you 'civilized' vis-a-vis other cultures. I'm weary of the using the word 'civilized' because it sounds a little colonialist, but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some de…

> when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues.

People do this plenty in the USA. Alternative medicine, homeopathy, crystals, religion, fad diets, self-help programs, ...

The purveyors of “magic spells” I know in southern Mexico are also (1) incredibly careful and well trained observers of the human body, better than many western doctors, though obviously with differing gaps in their knowledge (2) experts in cures made from plants or other local materials, far beyond the knowledge of western doctors who just write prescriptions for pre-made drugs, (3) amazing storytellers, with deep knowledge of oral history/mythology, who bring hope and comfort.

You know what else we have in the USA, just like everywhere else in the world? Fraud, corruption, violence, child abuse, infidelity, broken relationships, drug abuse, misallocation of resources, propaganda, etc. etc.

Often our authority figures and institutions (police, doctors, social workers, clergy, teachers, government officials, newspapers, ...) can cause just as many problems as the quackiest witch-doctor.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#19

Post by fsiefken » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:37 AM UTC

rusanu wrote: post #4

I'm speculating and have no evidence, but my thinking is that offering money with no strings attached is a threat to those that offer money (or other help) with strings attached. Spreading rumors would be a defense strategy to protect those interests.

Hi Rusanu, some people or subcultures have a higher propensity to magical thinking. In Kenya for example all kinds of conspiracy theories exist about the origin of AIDS. There doesn't need to be an extra agency that intentionally spreads disinformation to explain this phenomenon. That there are agencies involved in this type of manipulations in general is a fact though, not sure who the parties would be that are threatened by this. NGO's would welcome reliable results I think

Also read this: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427625/no-fbi-didnt-cr...

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#20

Post by gioele » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 9:38 AM UTC

hacksonx wrote: post #7

Perhaps not the biggest reason behind the refusal but the fact that it is mentioned warrants discussion. Che Guevara is said to have travelled to the Congo to train Guerrilla militia there and stopped when instead of focussing on training, the people focused on voodoo magic to protect them. A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided…

> A similar phenomena was witnessed in South Africa with the Marikina massacre of 2012, where miners believed that herbs provided by a witchdoctor would make them invisible.

The US market for homeopathic products was $6.4 billion in 2013: http://www.pharmacytimes.com/publications/issue/2013/Septemb...

In Italy, post-earthquake survivors are being provided homeopathic products: http://www.ilpost.it/2016/08/27/regione-marche-terremoto-ome...

Credulous people are everywhere.