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The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

theobjectivestandard.com

11–20 of 56 posts

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#11
post #8
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the article is completely missing the point. My favorite bit: "Those who maintain that being moral consists in being altruistic have no alternative but to base that belief on some form of mysticism" It's like they haven't heard of the iterated prisoner's dilemma or something.

Illustrations like the prisoner's dilemma help convey how an entire group can benefit from certain behaviors, but they're less useful when making decisions as a lone, rational actor with access to many different groups and no reason to keep iterating. And even if such illustrations were more helpful, they wouldn't rise to the same level as an imperative moral code. Why not just view them as a challenge to be overcome…

Why not just view them as a challenge to be overcome?

Because I usually feel bad when I harm others, and I usually feel good when I help others. Altruism seems to be built into most human brains, and it would take a lot of conditioning to overcome. Most importantly, I think eliminating altruism would lead to a world where average quality of life was lower.

(Of course, these altruistic tendencies are what cause me to care about average quality of life.)

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#12
I voted up this link (after it appeared on the front page) but precisely because I think it is such ridiculous hooey that it is worth commenting on. It's errors are abundant so I'll choose just one which, taken as paradigm, can be used to discover several others:

The author of the article quotes Hitchens as saying (I've added emphasis): "[C]onscience is innate," and `[e]verybody but the psychopath' has the `feeling' that this is so. This `innate conscience' is what makes murder and theft `abhorrent to humans without any further explanation'; it is what gives children an `innate sense of fairness'; and it is what informs each of us of our `duty to others.'"

Now, Hitchens is perfectly comprehensible there and there is ample objective empirical evidence to back him up. The author has made a fine enough paraphrase of one of Hitchens' main points. The author of the article immediately goes on to err very badly:

Let's pick apart his next few sentences:

"The notion of an `innate conscience' is, of course, not original to Hitchens; the history of philosophy is replete with appeals to a `moral sense' or `moral intuition' or `moral law within.'"

Pardon me but philosophy has nothing to do with it. Such philosophers as the author refers to are trying to explain the fact that, by in large, we know right from wrong. As Hitchens asserted, we know things about morality and we know that we know these things "without need for further explanation". The author of the article ignores those words and proceeds to assume, behind Hitchens' simple statement, an implicit explanation. Once he does so, he is no longer arguing against Hitchens, he is arguing against a straw-man.

To borrow an example from a writer I like: Suppose you and I are sitting at the bar of a pub, chatting about sports. One of the patron's very friendly dogs is sitting outside waiting patiently, tied to a parking meter. A fellow walks by on the sidewalk and without provocation kicks the dog, hard.

Now, do we need to discuss what in scripture forbids such an act? Do we need to question whether our Kantian faculty for moral reasoning rings true when it signals the evil of such an act? Or do we just immediately agree that "That ain't right" and perhaps step outside to confront the man what done it? Is anything added to our obvious and gut-level reaction by additional discussion of where, in principle, that reaction comes from? Or can we just stipulate that it was in fact wrong to kick the dog and that almost certainly intervention is called for?

We do not need God in order to decide that kicking the dog was wrong. We do not need Kant or Descartes. We do not need debate. "Hey, look: that guy just kicked that dog!" What more do you need? Perhaps the philosopher at the other end of the bar will say "No, perhaps he kicked the dog to prevent a larger tragedy." Perhaps the theist next to him will point out the dog's place as chattel in the divine order of things. Perhaps the evolutionary biologist will try to stay our intervention by pointing out that we are reacting to genetically programmed perceptions. Perhaps the Taoist will solemnly observe that the dog can not experience pleasure unless it also experiences pain. Have any of these stooges added anything worthy of the moment? No, of course not. The situation needs no discussion - no explanation. What would happen, in real life, is that a large number of patrons of the pub would rise to intervene - and next to nobody would blame them. And this would be a moral reaction. We know right from wrong when we see it laid bare. No further explanation needed.

In order to "argue" with Hitchens, the author posits an "explanation" for this knowing and then proceeds to tear apart that explanation: a kind of intellectual onanism.

I do not mean, to answer how the author of the article burbles on, that we always make right choices or that we always agree about what the right choices are. Of course we do not. We generally agree (though not universally) in recognizing extreme cases of sociopathy. We all make moral mistakes, often tragic. We all are sometimes slow if not entirely unable to recognize our mistakes. These are separate questions and positing God, Kantian moral faculties, evolutionary proscriptions, etc. -- these add nothing to the conversation with the possible partial exception of the evolutionary psychiatrists who can at least provide some partial post-mortem analysis of failings, sometimes.

The author continues:

"But although many have appealed to such a sense, none has ever been able to overcome the fact that it is observationally false that humans possess an innate sense of right and wrong: Many people, and not just psychopaths, make horrifically bad choices that ruin their own lives, the lives of others, or both."

How this contradicts Hitchens is a truth to be found only in the authors' own imagination. Yes, tragedy happens. And yes, not everything is clear cut, especially in the heat of a decision-making moment.

"And not all of these people know that their actions are morally wrong. On the contrary, many believe that their actions are morally justified."

None of which contradicts anything Hitchens' said. The author seems to have assumed that Hitchens was talking about, to sling jargon around, an infallible moral faculty present in all but psychopaths. Had Hitchens ever, anywhere, argued for such a thing the author would have a point. Hitchens didn't. The author doesn't.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#13

My biggest gripe with this article is that the ‘solution’ is introduced in the second-to-last paragraph. I’m a big fan of Ayn Rand, and I think the ‘New Atheists’ probably do have a lot to learn from Objectivism, since it seems a lot more internally consistent—nevertheless, in articles like these it should occupy more than just a footnote.

Of course, you don't really get as many page views (or, sadly, upvotes on Hacker News) if you just write another blog post about why everyone should adopt Ayn Rand's philosophical system. You have to string everyone along for several paragraphs first.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#14
For the Tl;dr ers out there, here's the short version. And no, I don't agree that the Objectivists get off so easy...

The atheists claim to be able to explain ethics, but they provide no ultimate foundation for ethics. Instead they point to intuition, evolution, game theory and community standards. However they are confusing descriptive talk for normative talk.

Where the atheists criticize religion, they presuppose an ultimate foundation for ethics. That is, they can only criticize religious atrocities from the ground that religion provided for them.

However, the idea that we ought to do what we want to do magically fills in the holes.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#15
I could not get past this section: / Did these killers— and the millions of people in the Middle East who celebrated their actions— ack an innate conscience? Or did their innate consciences house different contents than those of Americans who reacted with horror to what they did?/

The argument these and other atheists are making is that religion is, by design, overriding any innate sense of morality we might have built in. Or as Steven Weinberg put it: /With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion/

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#16
post #5

The initial premise is somewhat absurd. If the current scientific origin of the universe theories are wrong it does not follow that the genesis myths of religions a-z are any more probable merely because of this wrongness. Setting out thus to debunk a scientific theory explaining origins does not at the same time validate biblical genesis. In the same sense attempting to attack the foundations of an irreligious frame…

I think you misunderstood the point of the article. It's not trying to support religion as the source of morality, quite the opposite. Instead, it's showing that the morality these New Atheists present is no more grounded in reason than religion is - they ground it in feelings. The alternative is Objectivism which bases morality on facts and reason.

I agree that Harris presents utilitarianism, though he oddly avoids the word. That it is a variation of altruism, where each individual sacrifices himself to the group. Harris does not give a rational justification for this, just assumes everyone will feel it's correct. Feelings are not reason, so you have to ask where such feelings come from.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#17
post #8
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the article is completely missing the point. My favorite bit: "Those who maintain that being moral consists in being altruistic have no alternative but to base that belief on some form of mysticism" It's like they haven't heard of the iterated prisoner's dilemma or something.

Illustrations like the prisoner's dilemma help convey how an entire group can benefit from certain behaviors, but they're less useful when making decisions as a lone, rational actor with access to many different groups and no reason to keep iterating. And even if such illustrations were more helpful, they wouldn't rise to the same level as an imperative moral code. Why not just view them as a challenge to be overcome…

The main thing that you're missing is that people are social animals. That's how we've evolved, and why we have most of the cognitive biases/moral standpoints that we do (eg. punishing defectors/fairness/not killing other people for their stuff). This is Richard Dawkins' argument in a nutshell - you are essentially a paleolithic tribesman in a suit.

If you prefer to look at it from a purely sociopathic amoral viewpoint, your ability to be a lone, rational actor is largely dependent on your interactions with society. You just have to look at people like Ted Kazcynski to see how completely independent actors live.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#18
post #14

For the Tl;dr ers out there, here's the short version. And no, I don't agree that the Objectivists get off so easy... The atheists claim to be able to explain ethics, but they provide no ultimate foundation for ethics. Instead they point to intuition, evolution, game theory and community standards. However they are confusing descriptive talk for normative talk. Where the atheists criticize religion, they presuppose a…

The article does not describe Objectivism, only refers the reader to look there for a rational ethics. Objectivism is not "ought to do what we want to do", that would again be ethics based on feelings, but instead of arriving at altruism as the New Atheists do, you arrived at something like hedonism. And that is the point: feelings are not a means of knowledge - everyone will arrive at something different. Feelings don't help you understand biological evolution, nor morality.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illustrations like the prisoner's dilemma help convey how an entire group can benefit from certain behaviors, but they're less useful when making decisions as a lone, rational actor with access to many different groups and no reason to keep iterating. And even if such illustrations were more helpful, they wouldn't rise to the same level as an imperative moral code. Why not just view them as a challenge to be overcome…

Why not just view them as a challenge to be overcome? Because I usually feel bad when I harm others, and I usually feel good when I help others. Altruism seems to be built into most human brains, and it would take a lot of conditioning to overcome. Most importantly, I think eliminating altruism would lead to a world where average quality of life was lower. (Of course, these altruistic tendencies are what cause me to…

"Because I usually feel bad when I harm others, and I usually feel good when I help others."

I do, to, but I also feel that often it's because it has been drilled into me.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#20
post #4
post #3

I knew it was going to come down to (fucking) Ayn Rand, when the author started discussing the primacy of senses. Anyway, I think the author makes a bit of a straw man argument when saying that Dawkins' "moral Zeitgeist" doesn't determine a rational, consistent basis for morality. I don't believe that Dawkins was trying to show that. I believe that Dawkins was trying to show that both religious and irreligious folks…

Yep, the article is completely missing the point. My favorite bit: "Those who maintain that being moral consists in being altruistic have no alternative but to base that belief on some form of mysticism" It's like they haven't heard of the iterated prisoner's dilemma or something.

Altruism does not mean doing things that in some way, directly or indirectly, benefit others. Nor does it have a monopoly on being nice or friendly to others. Instead, it means having a moral duty to serve others, acting in ways that avoid helping oneself. Some very influential altruist philosophers take it so far as to say you should suffer when helping others. Always, for your entire life. Contemporary altruists may not demand so much, but they do demand sacrifice, and deride self-interest.

Game theory doesn't explain altruism. It wouldn't even convince people that capitalism (with full protection of individual rights) is a decent system to support. It's a game, and can be interpreted many ways, including self-interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism

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