How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#11

Post by 2michaeltaylor » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:18 PM UTC

whamlastxmas wrote: post #2

Nothing really new here that isn't covered in Lean Startup materials. >We've spent millions of dollars ... so you don't have to. This two person company that's had, from what I can tell, a hand full of clients, has spent millions of dollars testing their marketing? I find that a little hard to believe. That said, their Playbook page is pretty cool and informative, even if seemingly most of it is behind a paywall. It'…

Hey, author and one of the co-founders here, michael taylor. Thanks for checking us out and taking the time to comment! We definitely are standing on shoulders of giants here; I sleep with Lean Startup under my pillow. We just saw this blowing up on HN and I'm personally pretty excited because it's the first time I've had anything on here. Didn't even expect it as a marketer, so that's awesome.

We've actually just hired our 15th person and for the past 2 years we've worked with 70+ startups and spent around $2m. That's not counting one client who spends about $40k a day on FB ads. Before that I worked at Efficient Frontier (now part of Adobe), Travelzoo and ShopStyle. In each place I managed or optimized multi-million dollar budgets; the learnings from which I applied whilst building our playbook, and I apply every time I write a post.

ROI for our playbook is calculated based on the average of the experiments we've run. Looking at the numbers we've averaged about 2 concluded tests per tactic, but those numbers are highly skewed; there are some that have run 10+ times, others that have never 'run' (just things I've tried before but don't have conclusive data to hand, or things I've read about in blog posts). Either way, this data should be taken with a pinch of salt and used directionally; while eventually we dream of being able to build a recommendation engine that auto-prioritizes these tactics, the reality is that we'll need a lot more people using the system (hence the incessant blogging). :-)

Hope that helps explain where we're coming from?

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#12

Post by whamlastxmas » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:34 PM UTC

2michaeltaylor wrote: post #11

whamlastxmas wrote: post #2

Nothing really new here that isn't covered in Lean Startup materials. >We've spent millions of dollars ... so you don't have to. This two person company that's had, from what I can tell, a hand full of clients, has spent millions of dollars testing their marketing? I find that a little hard to believe. That said, their Playbook page is pretty cool and informative, even if seemingly most of it is behind a paywall. It'…

Hey, author and one of the co-founders here, michael taylor. Thanks for checking us out and taking the time to comment! We definitely are standing on shoulders of giants here; I sleep with Lean Startup under my pillow. We just saw this blowing up on HN and I'm personally pretty excited because it's the first time I've had anything on here. Didn't even expect it as a marketer, so that's awesome. We've actually just hi…

My advice as a nobody who's done nothing except be cynical on the internet:

* Have a page for your team to show the size of your business. It adds a lot of legitimacy in an often slimy, fly-by-night industry.

* Advertise that you've worked with 70+ startups. I had assumed this was a fairly new landing page for a two-person project who struggled to get three clients so they could put up a case-studies page. Obviously this isn't the case.

* You spent $2m of your own money that could otherwise be in your personal bank account right now? Or $2m of clients' money? Because there's a pretty big difference, and it's blatantly misleading if you meant the latter. It would be accurate to say "We've managed the spending of millions of dollars" if that's the case.

* Having a percentage ROI attached to a tactic suggests a degree of accuracy of at least 1%. That's obviously not the case. These are, as you described, calculated from statistically insignificant data or complete guesses. Maybe just consider a 1 through 4 ranking system of importance.

* Have meaningful content in your case studies. Be more specific. Give concrete examples.

Of course, maybe these changes aren't what sells a client on your services in this industry. My advice would definitely make for a more honest, less-bullshit website, but it might not make for a more profitable company. Just don't expect a warm reception on social media sites, especially ones like HN that are known for cutting through the bullshit.

That said, you handled the shit I threw at you very well.

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#13

Post by hodgesrm » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:44 PM UTC

2michaeltaylor wrote: post #11

whamlastxmas wrote: post #2

Nothing really new here that isn't covered in Lean Startup materials. >We've spent millions of dollars ... so you don't have to. This two person company that's had, from what I can tell, a hand full of clients, has spent millions of dollars testing their marketing? I find that a little hard to believe. That said, their Playbook page is pretty cool and informative, even if seemingly most of it is behind a paywall. It'…

Hey, author and one of the co-founders here, michael taylor. Thanks for checking us out and taking the time to comment! We definitely are standing on shoulders of giants here; I sleep with Lean Startup under my pillow. We just saw this blowing up on HN and I'm personally pretty excited because it's the first time I've had anything on here. Didn't even expect it as a marketer, so that's awesome. We've actually just hi…

Thanks for a great write-up. I agree with most of the business tips but one thing you omitted is possible conflicts with your existing job over intellectual property and solicitation of either customers or employees. Most employment agreements include things like assignment of inventions and non-solicitation as standard terms.

Conflicts of this kind would be a good reason to quit before you get too deeply into research, which goes against the title of the post.

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#14

Post by 2michaeltaylor » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:47 PM UTC

whamlastxmas wrote: post #12

2michaeltaylor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, author and one of the co-founders here, michael taylor. Thanks for checking us out and taking the time to comment! We definitely are standing on shoulders of giants here; I sleep with Lean Startup under my pillow. We just saw this blowing up on HN and I'm personally pretty excited because it's the first time I've had anything on here. Didn't even expect it as a marketer, so that's awesome. We've actually just hi…

My advice as a nobody who's done nothing except be cynical on the internet: * Have a page for your team to show the size of your business. It adds a lot of legitimacy in an often slimy, fly-by-night industry. * Advertise that you've worked with 70+ startups. I had assumed this was a fairly new landing page for a two-person project who struggled to get three clients so they could put up a case-studies page. Obviously…

Cynicism is definitely healthy.

* Very fair point, just added to our Asana.

* Client's money. We've spent about $20k of our money over the past six months or so. I would argue we're even more on the hook when it's someone else's money (and we do a lot of design / content marketing in house, that you may normally pay for externally), but I definitely take your point.

* Also fair point, but some data is better than no data IMO (otherwise how do you prioritize this massive list?). Open to suggestions though!

* Yeah we do try to; are you talking blog post now or playbook? We see our blog posts as living, dynamic products in their own right; we plan to update this with more useful information (and edit it down to remove unnecessary info) over time.

* We actually get that feedback all the time. "I don't know what you guys do, but it looks cool" is like the main line we get when we talk to leads. However, the site converts at 19% (seriously) and we haven't been able to beat it yet by being more informative. Working on it!

I'm relishing people actually caring enough to take the time to (fairly) criticize us. Much better than languishing in obscurity. :-)

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#15

Post by suyash » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:48 PM UTC

whamlastxmas wrote: post #2

Nothing really new here that isn't covered in Lean Startup materials. >We've spent millions of dollars ... so you don't have to. This two person company that's had, from what I can tell, a hand full of clients, has spent millions of dollars testing their marketing? I find that a little hard to believe. That said, their Playbook page is pretty cool and informative, even if seemingly most of it is behind a paywall. It'…

Beware if you think after reading this you know all about starting a startup. This is just 10% of material - mostly surface knowledge. Read a book such as Running Lean to get more in depth knowledge.

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#16

Post by 2michaeltaylor » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:49 PM UTC

hodgesrm wrote: post #13

2michaeltaylor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, author and one of the co-founders here, michael taylor. Thanks for checking us out and taking the time to comment! We definitely are standing on shoulders of giants here; I sleep with Lean Startup under my pillow. We just saw this blowing up on HN and I'm personally pretty excited because it's the first time I've had anything on here. Didn't even expect it as a marketer, so that's awesome. We've actually just hi…

Thanks for a great write-up. I agree with most of the business tips but one thing you omitted is possible conflicts with your existing job over intellectual property and solicitation of either customers or employees. Most employment agreements include things like assignment of inventions and non-solicitation as standard terms. Conflicts of this kind would be a good reason to quit before you get too deeply into resear…

That's a very valid point. One for the lawyers. Anyone have good advice on this front? Happy to add to post.

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#17

Post by stefanmancevski » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:55 PM UTC

suyash wrote: post #15

whamlastxmas wrote: post #2

Nothing really new here that isn't covered in Lean Startup materials. >We've spent millions of dollars ... so you don't have to. This two person company that's had, from what I can tell, a hand full of clients, has spent millions of dollars testing their marketing? I find that a little hard to believe. That said, their Playbook page is pretty cool and informative, even if seemingly most of it is behind a paywall. It'…

Beware if you think after reading this you know all about starting a startup. This is just 10% of material - mostly surface knowledge. Read a book such as Running Lean to get more in depth knowledge.

Of course! This is just step 1 - validating your idea. Actually starting a startup takes a whole lot more time, effort, stress, and hard work.

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#18

Post by whamlastxmas » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:05 PM UTC

2michaeltaylor wrote: post #14

whamlastxmas wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My advice as a nobody who's done nothing except be cynical on the internet: * Have a page for your team to show the size of your business. It adds a lot of legitimacy in an often slimy, fly-by-night industry. * Advertise that you've worked with 70+ startups. I had assumed this was a fairly new landing page for a two-person project who struggled to get three clients so they could put up a case-studies page. Obviously…

Cynicism is definitely healthy. * Very fair point, just added to our Asana. * Client's money. We've spent about $20k of our money over the past six months or so. I would argue we're even more on the hook when it's someone else's money (and we do a lot of design / content marketing in house, that you may normally pay for externally), but I definitely take your point. * Also fair point, but some data is better than no…

>Also fair point, but some data is better than no data IMO (otherwise how do you prioritize this massive list?). Open to suggestions though!

Like I said, just have a 1 through 4 system. 1 being most important (or vice versa). It's roughly the level of accuracy you have already, and it accurately portrays that these are estimations/opinions, not actually data-driven numbers.

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#19

Post by 2michaeltaylor » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:13 PM UTC

whamlastxmas wrote: post #18

2michaeltaylor wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cynicism is definitely healthy. * Very fair point, just added to our Asana. * Client's money. We've spent about $20k of our money over the past six months or so. I would argue we're even more on the hook when it's someone else's money (and we do a lot of design / content marketing in house, that you may normally pay for externally), but I definitely take your point. * Also fair point, but some data is better than no…

>Also fair point, but some data is better than no data IMO (otherwise how do you prioritize this massive list?). Open to suggestions though! Like I said, just have a 1 through 4 system. 1 being most important (or vice versa). It's roughly the level of accuracy you have already, and it accurately portrays that these are estimations/opinions, not actually data-driven numbers.

Makes sense. Pretty big change conceptually so jotted it down for our next co-founders meeting.

Re: How to Test Drive Your Business Idea Before Quitting Your Job

#20

Post by wtvanhest » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:18 PM UTC

2michaeltaylor wrote: post #11

whamlastxmas wrote: post #2

Nothing really new here that isn't covered in Lean Startup materials. >We've spent millions of dollars ... so you don't have to. This two person company that's had, from what I can tell, a hand full of clients, has spent millions of dollars testing their marketing? I find that a little hard to believe. That said, their Playbook page is pretty cool and informative, even if seemingly most of it is behind a paywall. It'…

Hey, author and one of the co-founders here, michael taylor. Thanks for checking us out and taking the time to comment! We definitely are standing on shoulders of giants here; I sleep with Lean Startup under my pillow. We just saw this blowing up on HN and I'm personally pretty excited because it's the first time I've had anything on here. Didn't even expect it as a marketer, so that's awesome. We've actually just hi…

Off topic, but can you fix that bug that makes your site create a popup when a user highlights text. I have trouble tracking text and use the highlight to read faster. Your site is completely unreadable to me.