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Getting to Bootstrap v4

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Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#11

Post by smitherfield »

toxican wrote: post #9
jasonkester wrote: post #4

Seems entirely reasonable. The response to this highlights something I've noticed watching Open Source stuff for a while: this attitude that a piece of software can never simply be finished , but that it must constantly be changing to be alive. This is a good example of that. Bootstrap 3 has been out for a while and it mostly works for the things it was designed to work for. If you look hard enough, you can find bugs…

Right now we don't have a maintained, release version of bootstrap. That's not really reasonable at all, imo. I understand wanting to focus on the next version, but maybe continue to maintain v3 until v4 comes out? Ditching support the day v4 drops is still kinda premature, imo, but still better than this limbo we're left with. Frankly this seems incredibly unprofessional.

In fairness, any bugs in a CSS framework are very unlikely to be especially significant from a business standpoint.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#13

Post by emidln »

toxican wrote: post #9
jasonkester wrote: post #4

Seems entirely reasonable. The response to this highlights something I've noticed watching Open Source stuff for a while: this attitude that a piece of software can never simply be finished , but that it must constantly be changing to be alive. This is a good example of that. Bootstrap 3 has been out for a while and it mostly works for the things it was designed to work for. If you look hard enough, you can find bugs…

Right now we don't have a maintained, release version of bootstrap. That's not really reasonable at all, imo. I understand wanting to focus on the next version, but maybe continue to maintain v3 until v4 comes out? Ditching support the day v4 drops is still kinda premature, imo, but still better than this limbo we're left with. Frankly this seems incredibly unprofessional.

Perhaps you should chip in some time or dollars to help maintain a release version. The great thing about open source is that if you care enough, you can help yourself (either directly through code maintenance or indirectly via funding someone else).

The only unprofessional thing is the entitlement to someone else's time.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#14

Post by jasonkester »

toxican wrote: post #9
jasonkester wrote: post #4

Seems entirely reasonable. The response to this highlights something I've noticed watching Open Source stuff for a while: this attitude that a piece of software can never simply be finished , but that it must constantly be changing to be alive. This is a good example of that. Bootstrap 3 has been out for a while and it mostly works for the things it was designed to work for. If you look hard enough, you can find bugs…

Right now we don't have a maintained, release version of bootstrap. That's not really reasonable at all, imo. I understand wanting to focus on the next version, but maybe continue to maintain v3 until v4 comes out? Ditching support the day v4 drops is still kinda premature, imo, but still better than this limbo we're left with. Frankly this seems incredibly unprofessional.

This is exactly the attitude I describe above. Why does Bootstrap need maintaining?

It's a pile of CSS and a few scripts to show and hide things. And it has had three years of effort put in to make sure everything works mostly as it should. That's not going to change.

We're just not going to get anything new. It was fine for production use yesterday. What has changed that makes it less fine today?

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#15

Post by jcadam »

toxican wrote: post #9
jasonkester wrote: post #4

Seems entirely reasonable. The response to this highlights something I've noticed watching Open Source stuff for a while: this attitude that a piece of software can never simply be finished , but that it must constantly be changing to be alive. This is a good example of that. Bootstrap 3 has been out for a while and it mostly works for the things it was designed to work for. If you look hard enough, you can find bugs…

Right now we don't have a maintained, release version of bootstrap. That's not really reasonable at all, imo. I understand wanting to focus on the next version, but maybe continue to maintain v3 until v4 comes out? Ditching support the day v4 drops is still kinda premature, imo, but still better than this limbo we're left with. Frankly this seems incredibly unprofessional.

I'm building a new application on v4 at the moment and there are definitely bugs. But as a solo developer (yea, this is a 'side' project, albeit one I'm taking somewhat seriously) who isn't particularly skilled in UI design I couldn't imagine trying to whip up an interface without something like Bootstrap (or Foundation, et al.). I'd end up with something functional but with a decidedly 1990s vibe :)

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#16

Post by talmand »

toxican wrote: post #9
jasonkester wrote: post #4

Seems entirely reasonable. The response to this highlights something I've noticed watching Open Source stuff for a while: this attitude that a piece of software can never simply be finished , but that it must constantly be changing to be alive. This is a good example of that. Bootstrap 3 has been out for a while and it mostly works for the things it was designed to work for. If you look hard enough, you can find bugs…

Right now we don't have a maintained, release version of bootstrap. That's not really reasonable at all, imo. I understand wanting to focus on the next version, but maybe continue to maintain v3 until v4 comes out? Ditching support the day v4 drops is still kinda premature, imo, but still better than this limbo we're left with. Frankly this seems incredibly unprofessional.

Seems to me it was stated that it will be maintained, just that commits will slow down. Plus, it's open source, why can't the community work on the last open issues while the team moves forward on v4 which is already falling behind?

Sometimes, there is a time to call a three-year-old project stable and move on.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#18

Post by beautifulpeople »

jasonkester wrote: post #4

Seems entirely reasonable. The response to this highlights something I've noticed watching Open Source stuff for a while: this attitude that a piece of software can never simply be finished , but that it must constantly be changing to be alive. This is a good example of that. Bootstrap 3 has been out for a while and it mostly works for the things it was designed to work for. If you look hard enough, you can find bugs…

>attitude that a piece of software can never simply be finished

The problem often is the delta between perfect, and done. It's hard, as a creator, to realize when something is great in other people's eyes. The creator looks at their work and cringes. Everyone else looks at it and claps. It's that delta that creates the drive for perpetual development.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#19

Post by Bahamut »

toxican wrote: post #9
jasonkester wrote: post #4

Seems entirely reasonable. The response to this highlights something I've noticed watching Open Source stuff for a while: this attitude that a piece of software can never simply be finished , but that it must constantly be changing to be alive. This is a good example of that. Bootstrap 3 has been out for a while and it mostly works for the things it was designed to work for. If you look hard enough, you can find bugs…

Right now we don't have a maintained, release version of bootstrap. That's not really reasonable at all, imo. I understand wanting to focus on the next version, but maybe continue to maintain v3 until v4 comes out? Ditching support the day v4 drops is still kinda premature, imo, but still better than this limbo we're left with. Frankly this seems incredibly unprofessional.

What is bad is this state where companies expect open source to cater to their whims and not putting in the resources to help maintain/develop projects with stretched resources - that is far worse than the (dubious) unprofessionalism of the Bootstrap maintainers' decision here.

Bootstrap 3 is probably more stable than the CSS most people typically write in all probability. I don't see the problem here, and this typical knee jerk reaction to carefully made open source decisions really sucks & does a disservice.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#20

Post by toxican »

jasonkester wrote: post #14
toxican wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now we don't have a maintained, release version of bootstrap. That's not really reasonable at all, imo. I understand wanting to focus on the next version, but maybe continue to maintain v3 until v4 comes out? Ditching support the day v4 drops is still kinda premature, imo, but still better than this limbo we're left with. Frankly this seems incredibly unprofessional.

This is exactly the attitude I describe above. Why does Bootstrap need maintaining ? It's a pile of CSS and a few scripts to show and hide things. And it has had three years of effort put in to make sure everything works mostly as it should. That's not going to change. We're just not going to get anything new. It was fine for production use yesterday. What has changed that makes it less fine today?

Judging by the backlog of bugs they wiped out or moved over to v4, clearly it does need maintaining. CSS and JS both always find a way to behave oddly in fringe cases, so yes they do need bug fixes here and there. I absolutely understand that if it was fine for production yesterday, it's fine for today. And I'm not going to let this stop me from using v3. I just think it's rather unprofessional or at least hasty to ditch v3 before v4 is finalized. And it's not like this is some tiny little side project like a js slider or whatever, it's (for better or worse) a very large part of modern frontend web development.
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