Get Rid of Source Code Templates • Hacker News Board

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#11

Post by tophercyll » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 1:12 PM UTC

I loathe source code templates. To use web (newspaper?) terminology, it puts the content below the fold.

It also raises the cost of factoring code out into its own file. Even a simple code header can easily be double the amount of code I consider worth extracting.

I know many IDEs add them automatically, so it doesn't feel like much of a cost to the writer, but as the reader, you pay it every time. Why waste brain power thinking "Ok, ignore everything above, this down here is the real source code"?

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#12

Post by tel » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 1:45 PM UTC

Can't the major complaints be addressed by just moving all this to the bottom of the file?

  # foo.py: objects that manage the interaction between foos and bars
  # (see eof for license and detailed description)

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#13

Post by motters » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 1:59 PM UTC

I don't agree with most of this. Yes it is pointless to include the filename within the file itself, but it's still a good idea to retain the copyright statement and author names/email addresses. In an ideal world everyone would use version control all of the time and nobody would ever swap individual source files between projects having incompatible licenses, but in the real world of software development things don't always happen that way. Having the license within each file makes it unambiguous exactly what rights are being asserted, and if someone wants to change the terms they have to make actual modifications to the code (they can't just claim to have changed their opinion, or whatever).

If you're running a large project with thousands of files license changes can be automated with some trivial amount of coding, so this isn't a major issue. In large projects the license terms don't change very often anyway.

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#14

Post by wglb » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 2:06 PM UTC

Just a couple of questions.

So if I see a file lying somewhere around the internet, how do I tell who owns the copyright? How can I tell when it expires?

And if I find an executable, say, lying around in a coffee shop, how do I tell who it belongs to?

The berne deal doesn't require you to label these things, but without them, how can someone else tell?

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#15

Post by TorKlingberg » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 2:19 PM UTC

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #10

Yikes! "This means that you don’t need to do anything to have copyright over your works." But you DO need a copyright notice to collect damages for infringement. Without a notice, the most you can get is an injunction to stop infringement. "Often, source code files repeat the file name in the file itself." So you can tell which file when printing, or when viewing through a broken web interface.

"But you DO need a copyright notice to collect damages for infringement."

Really? I would need some kind of source for that claim.

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#16

Post by blaix » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 3:52 PM UTC

buster wrote: post #7

Errr, but how does someone know that something is copyrighted and what license if nobody is writing this info? Who do i contact when i have no info of copyright and want to use some others code? It may be ridiculous for that author but it's quite important.

If there is no notice you can assume it is copyrighted. Because unless explicitly stated otherwise, it is.

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#17

Post by Daniel_Newby » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 5:42 PM UTC

TorKlingberg wrote: post #15

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #10

Yikes! "This means that you don’t need to do anything to have copyright over your works." But you DO need a copyright notice to collect damages for infringement. Without a notice, the most you can get is an injunction to stop infringement. "Often, source code files repeat the file name in the file itself." So you can tell which file when printing, or when viewing through a broken web interface.

"But you DO need a copyright notice to collect damages for infringement." Really? I would need some kind of source for that claim.

Yeah, that is wrong. The distinction is that damages are often a pittance unless the copyright is registered.

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#18

Post by dagw » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 6:08 PM UTC

blaix wrote: post #16

buster wrote: post #7

Errr, but how does someone know that something is copyrighted and what license if nobody is writing this info? Who do i contact when i have no info of copyright and want to use some others code? It may be ridiculous for that author but it's quite important.

If there is no notice you can assume it is copyrighted. Because unless explicitly stated otherwise, it is.

Sure, but under what license is it made available. If I find some source code floating around on the internet while looking for the solution to some problem I'm having, knowing what license it's under is kind of important.

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#19

Post by j_baker » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 6:18 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #18

blaix wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is no notice you can assume it is copyrighted. Because unless explicitly stated otherwise, it is.

Sure, but under what license is it made available. If I find some source code floating around on the internet while looking for the solution to some problem I'm having, knowing what license it's under is kind of important.

How often does that happen really? I can't recall the last time I saw source code where you couldn't tell:

1. What license it's released under. 2. Who you can contact to get permission to use it.

If there's really no way to tell who the author is or what license it's under, then I'd say not to use it. It's probably better in the long run that way anyhow.

Re: Get Rid of Source Code Templates

#20

Post by j_baker » Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 6:20 PM UTC

tophercyll wrote: post #11

I loathe source code templates. To use web (newspaper?) terminology, it puts the content below the fold. It also raises the cost of factoring code out into its own file. Even a simple code header can easily be double the amount of code I consider worth extracting. I know many IDEs add them automatically, so it doesn't feel like much of a cost to the writer, but as the reader, you pay it every time. Why waste brain po…

In emacs, hs-hide-initial-comment-block works miracles. I'm sure other editors have ways to do that as well.

(That said, I totally agree with you. I wouldn't use them at all if I wasn't forced to at work.)