Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions • Hacker News Board

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#11

Post by joe_the_user » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 3:31 AM UTC

"In California last week, legislators and interest groups declared dead a measure pushed by Gov. Jerry Brown to allow certain apartments with some low-income units to sidestep the state’s environmental review process. "

It sounds like unions objected to using "low income housing" as an excuse to "sidestep the state’s environmental review process." I would also.

Environmental review shouldn't be an excuse to engage in NIMYBism but environmental review is important to prevent projects that are environmentally destructive.

It sounds like every interest group involved here is using "low incoming housing" to ram through the "reforms" they're after.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#12

Post by jseliger » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 3:33 AM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #5

twblalock wrote: post #2

Unions shot themselves in the foot here. Some of the new construction projects would have been run by union shops. Now, they won't happen at all. Net result: fewer union jobs than there could have been. At some point, the unions will need to realize that stuff is going to get done with or without them. They can be part of the process, or not. If they are part of the process, they get some jobs out of it. This should…

Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn thin sympathies. I also imagine that in difficult economies like ours, the "right" to a job or work over someone e…

Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn thin sympathies.

For good reason. They prevent accountability among police: http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/14/police-unions-produce-rule....

They also prevent educational innovation: https://www.amazon.com/Special-Interest-Teachers-Americas-Sc... and pr event urban schools from even functioning.

As the topic article points out, construction unions are attacking the housing supply.

Should it be a surprise that anyone who pays attention is unhappy with unions?

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#13

Post by twblalock » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 3:37 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #11

"In California last week, legislators and interest groups declared dead a measure pushed by Gov. Jerry Brown to allow certain apartments with some low-income units to sidestep the state’s environmental review process. " It sounds like unions objected to using "low income housing" as an excuse to "sidestep the state’s environmental review process." I would also. Environmental review shouldn't be an excuse to engage in…

That's a mischaracterization. The law Jerry Brown proposed dealt with "as-of-right" zoning, i.e. if a parcel of land has been zoned for housing, and someone wants to build housing on it, they can do so without the NIMBY neighbors holding up the project indefinitely with frivolous lawsuits and "environmental" reviews. Unfortunately, Brown attached a low-income housing restriction onto it, but it was definitely a step in the right direction.

Real environmental review, by qualified people, happens when the land is zoned in the first place. Most "environmental review" lawsuits are not about the environment at all. The real environmental experts already had their say, or else the land wouldn't have been zoned. Most of these lawsuits seek a new review, often for bullshit reasons, and are filed by NIMBYs to bully the developers into giving up on developing the land by piling on years and millions of dollars of litigation. If that fails, they fall back on "quality of life" and noise complaints.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#14

Post by twblalock » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 3:42 AM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #12

themartorana wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn thin sympathies. I also imagine that in difficult economies like ours, the "right" to a job or work over someone e…

Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn thin sympathies. For good reason. They prevent accountability among police: http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/14/poli…

I generally agree with what you are saying, but I should point out that private-sector and public-sector unions are very different animals.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#15

Post by mturmon » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 3:48 AM UTC

cpncrunch wrote: post #3

Impossible to read without subscribing. Incognito doesnt work. Clicking on google search link doesnt work.

Hmm, the CFG bookmarklet worked for me...https://blog.umur.io/2015/03/02/paywall-bypass-bookmarklet-c...

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#16

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 3:52 AM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #12

themartorana wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn thin sympathies. I also imagine that in difficult economies like ours, the "right" to a job or work over someone e…

Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn thin sympathies. For good reason. They prevent accountability among police: http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/14/poli…

Maybe its because the public looks down upon unions that the middle class is slowly sliding into destitution? [1] [2]

I'm definitely not a fan of unions, but besides the movement to push minimum wage up to $15/hr across the country, I don't see any organized groups continuing to push the salary threshold at which overtime pay is required, reducing the number of hours in a work week (which is f___ing insane we're still working ~40 hours a week with how much productivity has grown since the 60's), and so forth.

Either unions or political activists must fight for these labor protections; pick your poison.

[1] http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-middl...

[2] http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477/...

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#17

Post by sologoub » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 3:53 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #13

joe_the_user wrote: post #11

"In California last week, legislators and interest groups declared dead a measure pushed by Gov. Jerry Brown to allow certain apartments with some low-income units to sidestep the state’s environmental review process. " It sounds like unions objected to using "low income housing" as an excuse to "sidestep the state’s environmental review process." I would also. Environmental review shouldn't be an excuse to engage in…

That's a mischaracterization. The law Jerry Brown proposed dealt with "as-of-right" zoning, i.e. if a parcel of land has been zoned for housing, and someone wants to build housing on it, they can do so without the NIMBY neighbors holding up the project indefinitely with frivolous lawsuits and "environmental" reviews. Unfortunately, Brown attached a low-income housing restriction onto it, but it was definitely a step…

That's not how it works, especially in hot markets. Zoning is not absolute and the current process allows for all kinds of variances and exceptions.

The Pen Factory project is an excellent example. Local NIMBYs defeated a really neat project that even included low income housing. The original developer said "screw it" and sold the property to a developer that is now doing a by the books and within exact letter of zoning project that will result in a lot of office space and no mitigations for extra traffic or anything. No reviews will stop it.

The environmental reviews cannot be used as an effective NIMBY weapon is the developer is using original zoning. Instead, most project I have seen in LA push boundaries for profitability, often resulting in legal fights with locals.

Source: http://urbanize.la/post/construction-underway-santa-monicas-...

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#18

Post by twblalock » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 3:54 AM UTC

sologoub wrote: post #17

twblalock wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a mischaracterization. The law Jerry Brown proposed dealt with "as-of-right" zoning, i.e. if a parcel of land has been zoned for housing, and someone wants to build housing on it, they can do so without the NIMBY neighbors holding up the project indefinitely with frivolous lawsuits and "environmental" reviews. Unfortunately, Brown attached a low-income housing restriction onto it, but it was definitely a step…

That's not how it works, especially in hot markets. Zoning is not absolute and the current process allows for all kinds of variances and exceptions. The Pen Factory project is an excellent example. Local NIMBYs defeated a really neat project that even included low income housing. The original developer said "screw it" and sold the property to a developer that is now doing a by the books and within exact letter of zon…

In the San Francisco area, new environmental reviews can, and have been, used as an effective weapon against development.

The point of Jerry Brown's law was to make zoning absolute, and to bypass variances and exceptions which generally accomplish nothing except to allow NIMBYs to bring frivolous lawsuits.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#19

Post by techdragon » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 4:00 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #16

jseliger wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn thin sympathies. For good reason. They prevent accountability among police: http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/14/poli…

Maybe its because the public looks down upon unions that the middle class is slowly sliding into destitution? [1] [2] I'm definitely not a fan of unions, but besides the movement to push minimum wage up to $15/hr across the country, I don't see any organized groups continuing to push the salary threshold at which overtime pay is required, reducing the number of hours in a work week (which is f___ing insane we're stil…

The 40 hour work week isn't a productivity related number... It's a cultural construction born from early 20th century union political efforts.

For instance in Denmark, the work week is typically 32 hours and has been this way for decades... Works fine for them... Not sure how well it would work in a culture like America where working as hard as possible is considered a good thing... Regardless of how stupidly obvious it is that this screws up work life balance, individual stress levels and by extension individual health, in the country with the most fucked up health care system in the western world...

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#20

Post by honkhonkpants » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 4:12 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #11

"In California last week, legislators and interest groups declared dead a measure pushed by Gov. Jerry Brown to allow certain apartments with some low-income units to sidestep the state’s environmental review process. " It sounds like unions objected to using "low income housing" as an excuse to "sidestep the state’s environmental review process." I would also. Environmental review shouldn't be an excuse to engage in…

That isn't why the unions opposed it. The unions need CEQA so they can extort developers. When developers don't hire enough union electricians, the IBEW files frivolous challenges under CEQA until the developer relents. Unions oppose Brown's measure because they would lose their ability to practice this racket.