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Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

theguardian.com

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Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#11

Post by cafard »

afandian wrote: post #3

I'll never forget a discussion with a very intelligent professional American (in the software business) who refused to believe that America could possibly be engaged in torture. She just refused to believe that a country as 'great' as the US could commit torture. (this was a few years ago under GWB when Guantanamo was all over the UK papers but presumably still being suppressed in the US media). The more stories like…

There was plenty of stuff about Guantanamo in the newspapers, for what that is worth.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#12

Post by afandian »

Cacti wrote: post #10
afandian wrote: post #3

I'll never forget a discussion with a very intelligent professional American (in the software business) who refused to believe that America could possibly be engaged in torture. She just refused to believe that a country as 'great' as the US could commit torture. (this was a few years ago under GWB when Guantanamo was all over the UK papers but presumably still being suppressed in the US media). The more stories like…

Let's be clear here though: it's not western imperial states, it's all imperial states throughout all of history, and all countries behave very differently at home compared to abroad.

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes lots of nations commit atrocities and have done through time.

If anything that's less of a reason to disbelieve that your taxes, and those of your predecessors, are being spent on atrocities.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#14

Post by afandian »

cafard wrote: post #11
afandian wrote: post #3

I'll never forget a discussion with a very intelligent professional American (in the software business) who refused to believe that America could possibly be engaged in torture. She just refused to believe that a country as 'great' as the US could commit torture. (this was a few years ago under GWB when Guantanamo was all over the UK papers but presumably still being suppressed in the US media). The more stories like…

There was plenty of stuff about Guantanamo in the newspapers, for what that is worth.

I think it would have been about 2003 but I really can't be sure. All I know is that she hadn't even heard of it.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#15

Post by afandian »

Spooky23 wrote: post #6

I think a better example of the evilness of the British Empire is the Irish experience in the 19th century. You lose the "excuse" of racism and are left with religious sectarianism and sheer greed for the policy. The British put inhumane and genocidal policies in place, starving millions in a land of plenty.

I'm not so sure. There has historically been very strong racism against Irish people in England.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#16

Post by anexprogrammer »

douche wrote: post #4
anexprogrammer wrote: post #2

Whilst Kenya was an undoubted low point of the British overseas territories, it's chilling to think they were markedly better behaved than the French and especially Belgian colonies in Africa. Quite how any of these were able to rationalise such behaviour, and so comparatively recently, whilst claiming to be civilised beats me.

Blood and repression is the norm for empires, from Sumeria down through. The new thing is being ashamed of it.

Well the first phase of the British Empire was much more about the trade than repression and saw abolition of suttee and slavery. Early treaties attempted to preserve native rights. Intermarriage was relatively common, as was some immigration into the UK.

The later "benevolent empire" phase, broadly around the time of the Opium wars, saw the repression, misrule and attempt to civilise these places. That saw more separation. This was the phase that saw concerted efforts to add infrastructure, schools, hospitals and such.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#17

Post by golergka »

afandian wrote: post #12
Cacti wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be clear here though: it's not western imperial states, it's all imperial states throughout all of history, and all countries behave very differently at home compared to abroad.

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes lots of nations commit atrocities and have done through time. If anything that's less of a reason to disbelieve that your taxes, and those of your predecessors, are being spent on atrocities.

I think that the parent comment author meant the usual anti-colonialism which attacks western colonialism as something unique and blames virtually any hardships of former colonies on it. I recently saw an article which argued that honor killings in Pakistan are to be blamed on colonialism — because, apparently, palistani men felt oppressed by colonial past and had to take it out on their wives, daughters and sisters. Unfortunately, this absurd position gets a lot of support nowadays, and often when you try to argue against it you're insantly labeled all kinds of things.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#18

Post by Spooky23 »

afandian wrote: post #15
Spooky23 wrote: post #6

I think a better example of the evilness of the British Empire is the Irish experience in the 19th century. You lose the "excuse" of racism and are left with religious sectarianism and sheer greed for the policy. The British put inhumane and genocidal policies in place, starving millions in a land of plenty.

I'm not so sure. There has historically been very strong racism against Irish people in England.

True. Sometimes these colonial abuse stories are whitewashed with "Yeah, the old timers were racists, but we're better now."

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#19

Post by dpark »

afandian wrote: post #3

I'll never forget a discussion with a very intelligent professional American (in the software business) who refused to believe that America could possibly be engaged in torture. She just refused to believe that a country as 'great' as the US could commit torture. (this was a few years ago under GWB when Guantanamo was all over the UK papers but presumably still being suppressed in the US media). The more stories like…

There was no suppression of the Guantanamo abuses in the US media. It was widely reported.

I also wonder if you misremember. It's plausible that the person you described refused to believe that the abuses were systemic. It is implausible that a "very intelligent professional" would legitimately deny the abuses entirely. They were widely reported and well documented.

Edit: Actually, you could have just been dealing with someone who actively chooses ignore this stuff. That is a sad possibility. It was still widely reported, though.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#20

Post by tgarma1234 »

Yes one of the great quirks of European history is that the British Empire is not held in the same esteem as the Nazi empire. The British Empire was bizarrely racist and killed tens of millions of people worldwide. Maybe even more than that if you include the promotion of slavery as a business on global scale. England is so lovable now though.
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