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Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

finance.yahoo.com

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Re: Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

#11

Post by justin_vanw »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #9
justin_vanw wrote: post #6

It has nothing to do with being there on Saturday. It has everything else to do with the kind of people and their ability to invest themselves in their goal, and showing up on Saturday is a great indicator of that. I interview a lot of programmers, and I can tell you with about 95% precision whether they will work out and be great based on the single question 'tell me about the programming projects you work on for fu…

How do you know? I mean, how do you test for false negatives in the hiring process? Perhaps you're rejecting lots of people without side projects, but they go on to be successful anyway?

Sure, I mean I didn't say I actually use this test to make hiring decisions. I can just directly test lots of things like ability to code or problem solve (not perfectly for sure, but I do my best to evaluate directly the skills that can be evaluated directly). I am just making the point that there are often very highly correlated attributes that people can have, and one that is easy to test for can give you a lot of information about the ones that are harder to see.

Re: Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

#12

Post by justin_vanw »

outworlder wrote: post #8
justin_vanw wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to go 'slow and steady' and have great 'work/life balance' (and work with a lot of mediocre people and play a lot of political games..) go get a job at a big company. Startups are not for that mentality, no startup has ever won by playing it safe and making sure people get plenty of sleep.

> Startups are not for that mentality, no startup has ever won by playing it safe and making sure people get plenty of sleep. Who's saying anything about playing it safe? It's all about strategically using your resources, not squandering them. Be it time, money or sleep. It's about engaging your afterburners when you actually need them, not when you are flying in circles.

So what do you do when people work until 11pm every night and keep showing up on Saturday? Tell them to go home?

There are teams where people are having more fun 'kicking ass' and getting things done, and have a great time with the people they are there doing it with, and frankly they would laugh you out of the building (literally) if you even for one second referred to them as 'resources'. I have seen people wander into the office on the weekend just because they were bored (including myself), or were looking to hang out and hack on some stuff. It's not something that burns you out, it's a passion for some people. The good people.

I think you have had a very limited (and limiting) work experience, to be honest.

Re: Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

#13

Post by exclusiv »

justin_vanw wrote: post #6

It has nothing to do with being there on Saturday. It has everything else to do with the kind of people and their ability to invest themselves in their goal, and showing up on Saturday is a great indicator of that. I interview a lot of programmers, and I can tell you with about 95% precision whether they will work out and be great based on the single question 'tell me about the programming projects you work on for fu…

That's also a key question that I ask, but I don't think a side project is necessarily important as simply finding out how they invest in themselves.

I want to invest in people that invest in themselves.

It may be a side project. It may be challenging themselves with new languages. It may be learning marketing or working on their writing. But they should be hungry. I don't run a large enough company to have to hire people that punch in and punch out [1].

Edit: [1] by punch in punch out - I mean no ongoing personal time invested in their professional skillset. I'm fine investing in people that only want to do 40 hours per week so long as they continue to spend personal time learning something.

Re: Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

#14

Post by exclusiv »

EduardoBautista wrote: post #10
rahimnathwani wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know? I mean, how do you test for false negatives in the hiring process? Perhaps you're rejecting lots of people without side projects, but they go on to be successful anyway?

You can never truly get rid of false negatives efficiently. However, false negatives are orders of magnitude better than false positives. So just try to minimize false positives and try not to lose sleep on the false negatives.

Agreed. It's especially important for smaller companies where each hire has a big impact. You're trying to minimize risk and have a good to great hire (technically and culturally), not hire the absolute best.

Re: Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

#16

Post by exclusiv »

rezashirazian wrote: post #5

I kinda get what she is saying. It takes a certain amount of passion and dedication for someone to show up on weekends. They must truly believe in the company or the idea to put in that type of effort. This dedication and passion will also reflect itself in the product. Many people can make a mediocre product by putting in the minimum amount required, but for something outstanding it usually takes more. Much more. Wh…

She advocates working nearly 20 hours a day and her track record doesn't seem to line up with her mantra. I think that might be causing some issues with some people.

You can probably do a bunch of high-level stuff like she's been doing, but you simply can't program that many hours, do customer service, marketing and more effectively without a sane schedule and no PEDs. Most people will burn out, esp. if they are pre-revenue and/or investors are breathing down their necks.

It's definitely a little arrogant. She says she can predict without knowing what they do. Also, Bill Gross and others with more experience across a wide variety of successful startups believe timing is the most important factor to predict success. [1]

However I do agree that some companies may win due to working excessively if they're in highly competitive spaces and VC funding is required. That extra effort can relate to timing which relates to funding and eventually an exit.

I think too often - these types like Mayer talk about building companies and startups as if VC funding and big exits are the only companies that should exist in our country and that there's only one way to do it.

I agree that they get built based on hard work, but a lot of people are in on weekends and putting in crazy hours because they are overbuilding their product, not talking to users, have no hobbies, etc.

[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gross_the_single_biggest_reaso...

Re: Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

#17

Post by exclusiv »

justin_vanw wrote: post #12
outworlder wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Startups are not for that mentality, no startup has ever won by playing it safe and making sure people get plenty of sleep. Who's saying anything about playing it safe? It's all about strategically using your resources, not squandering them. Be it time, money or sleep. It's about engaging your afterburners when you actually need them, not when you are flying in circles.

So what do you do when people work until 11pm every night and keep showing up on Saturday? Tell them to go home? There are teams where people are having more fun 'kicking ass' and getting things done, and have a great time with the people they are there doing it with, and frankly they would laugh you out of the building (literally) if you even for one second referred to them as 'resources'. I have seen people wander…

You're assuming the parent advocates discouraging passionate team members which isn't fair. "Resources" and "resourcing" are pretty standard terms esp. in the agency space and with companies using contractors as an example. Not sure why you take so much offense. Perhaps you are referring to co-founders or equity owners that would laugh one out of the building?

The notion that everyone has to grind on weekends to build something successful is ridiculous. Mayer is right about hard work. But she's simplistically equating "time logged" with "hard work".

What's success in this conversation? I'd be willing to bet most the startups that go to her husband's co-working space will fail. That's based on data and more accurate of a statement than hers.

Re: Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

#18

Post by xbeta »

justin_vanw wrote: post #6

It has nothing to do with being there on Saturday. It has everything else to do with the kind of people and their ability to invest themselves in their goal, and showing up on Saturday is a great indicator of that. I interview a lot of programmers, and I can tell you with about 95% precision whether they will work out and be great based on the single question 'tell me about the programming projects you work on for fu…

I'm not sure I agree entirely with you. As a startup engineer who already had some 14+ hrs work day, and when getting home have a family + kids waiting for me fill in a role as a father. I'm not even sure we have extra time for a side project for fun on the weekends. To me, being a dad is always take higher priorities.

I guess people like us will never be good engineering hire. That's fine. Standing on the shoes of a startup founders, I probably wouldn't wanna hire someone who's not committed either.

I see no exit for this. I'm preparing to be fade out by the younger blood and eventually lose my engineering value.

Re: Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

#20

Post by NEDM64 »

jagtesh wrote: post #15

Slightly off-topic, how did this get picked by Yahoo? Do they get enough editorial freedom to publish something that doesn't favour their CEO? I'm pleasantly surprised for one. Could this also mean the editorial team believes this to be true?

It's CNBC content.
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