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How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

nytimes.com

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Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#11

Post by rahimnathwani »

cmarschner wrote: post #7
wrong_variable wrote: post #2

The person does not seem to draw to anything actionable, and his conclusion is vague. I am not sure what he even means by 'optimizing for efficiency' If your business depends on the happiness of your employees then optimizing for their happiness increases your bottom line. If your business will be shut down if you commit fraud then optimizing for transparency is in your interest. Is this person blaming economists for…

For economists, efficiency is simply that goods should be created where the surroundings are best suited for it - first described by David Ricardo in the 19th century. E.g. Cotton should be planted where there is the most fertile soil etc. This works best in a globalized economy where production can move around freely and where there are no trade restrictions. As a result, productivity is higher, meaning that goods a…

"Cotton should be planted where there is the most fertile soil etc."

Nitpick: this statement is about absolute advantage, whereas Ricardo emphasised comparative advantage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage#Ricardo....

Imagine that you're better than me at everything (both programming and needlework). You can program three times as fast, and sew twice as fast as I can. Does that mean you should do all your own programming and sewing? No.

However small my contribution, I can save you some time by doing some sewing for you. In that saved time, you can do more programming than I could have achieved in the time I spent sewing. So in sum we're better off. So, there are potential gains from trade.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#12

Post by jwblackwell »

nugget wrote: post #9
keithpeter wrote: post #5

Quote from OA "Voters in large numbers have been rejecting much of the underlying logic behind a dynamic globalized economy that on paper seems to make the world much richer." In the UK, we don't actually know why 17+ million chose to tick the leave box. My conversations with a handful of people who did vote leave suggest a range of reasons from immigration, through to 'loss of control'. Macroeconomic policy does not…

Do you think millenials being priced out of London as it became a global money laundering hub had anything to do with it? That's what I hear from my friends there.

London largely voted remain so not really. However I think youth are rightly frustrated about London prices

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#13

Post by thaumasiotes »

cmarschner wrote: post #7
wrong_variable wrote: post #2

The person does not seem to draw to anything actionable, and his conclusion is vague. I am not sure what he even means by 'optimizing for efficiency' If your business depends on the happiness of your employees then optimizing for their happiness increases your bottom line. If your business will be shut down if you commit fraud then optimizing for transparency is in your interest. Is this person blaming economists for…

For economists, efficiency is simply that goods should be created where the surroundings are best suited for it - first described by David Ricardo in the 19th century. E.g. Cotton should be planted where there is the most fertile soil etc. This works best in a globalized economy where production can move around freely and where there are no trade restrictions. As a result, productivity is higher, meaning that goods a…

> For economists, efficiency is simply that goods should be created where the surroundings are best suited for it - first described by David Ricardo in the 19th century. E.g. Cotton should be planted where there is the most fertile soil etc.

This seems slightly off to me. Cotton can be grown more efficiently (in the usual sense of less cost per unit return) in some climates than others. But the economy as a whole may be more efficient if cotton is grown exclusively in subpar-for-cotton areas; perhaps the ideal-for-cotton areas are needed for another crop.

As I understand it, "efficiency" in economics will refer to one of two ideas:

1. Small deadweight losses. The smaller they are, the more efficient the economy is.

2. Pareto efficiency. (That is, the economy is efficient, in this sense, if there is no reallocation of resources that makes somebody better off without making anyone worse off.)

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#14

Post by s_kilk »

nugget wrote: post #9
keithpeter wrote: post #5

Quote from OA "Voters in large numbers have been rejecting much of the underlying logic behind a dynamic globalized economy that on paper seems to make the world much richer." In the UK, we don't actually know why 17+ million chose to tick the leave box. My conversations with a handful of people who did vote leave suggest a range of reasons from immigration, through to 'loss of control'. Macroeconomic policy does not…

Do you think millenials being priced out of London as it became a global money laundering hub had anything to do with it? That's what I hear from my friends there.

Unlikely. If you look at the age breakdown of the vote, millenials and other assorted youngsters voted overwhelmingly for "Remain", while the older cohort voted for "Leave".

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#15

Post by keithpeter »

nugget wrote: post #9
keithpeter wrote: post #5

Quote from OA "Voters in large numbers have been rejecting much of the underlying logic behind a dynamic globalized economy that on paper seems to make the world much richer." In the UK, we don't actually know why 17+ million chose to tick the leave box. My conversations with a handful of people who did vote leave suggest a range of reasons from immigration, through to 'loss of control'. Macroeconomic policy does not…

Do you think millenials being priced out of London as it became a global money laundering hub had anything to do with it? That's what I hear from my friends there.

If you look at a map showing the breakdown of referendum voting by district you will find that Scotland, London and University towns together with many larger cities voted to remain. Areas of the country that depend most heavily on EU grants (ESF/ERDF) voted to leave. Grant allocation is a reliable indicator of relative lack of investment/development.

I don't live in London so I can't comment on conversations there.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#16

Post by smikhanov »

nugget wrote: post #9
keithpeter wrote: post #5

Quote from OA "Voters in large numbers have been rejecting much of the underlying logic behind a dynamic globalized economy that on paper seems to make the world much richer." In the UK, we don't actually know why 17+ million chose to tick the leave box. My conversations with a handful of people who did vote leave suggest a range of reasons from immigration, through to 'loss of control'. Macroeconomic policy does not…

Do you think millenials being priced out of London as it became a global money laundering hub had anything to do with it? That's what I hear from my friends there.

Becoming a global money laundering hub like London is a wet dream of every major city on this planet. Plus, as the commenter below mentions, London mostly voted remain.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#17

Post by flukus »

jwblackwell wrote: post #12
nugget wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think millenials being priced out of London as it became a global money laundering hub had anything to do with it? That's what I hear from my friends there.

London largely voted remain so not really. However I think youth are rightly frustrated about London prices

40% of London voted to leave, that's enough to change the outcome.

I don't think pretending there is a huge geographical divide is particularly helpful.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#19

Post by ZenoArrow »

> "Voters in large numbers have been rejecting much of the underlying logic behind a dynamic globalized economy that on paper seems to make the world much richer."

That's a very different narrative than the one I recognise. From what I've seen the main effects of globalisation have been twofold:

1. Lowering prices by getting the working classes of all countries to compete with each other.

2. Giving multinational companies greater leeway in tax avoidance.

The narrative that either benefits us all is somewhat misleading. Furthermore, with increased automation we'll see an even more rapid concentration of wealth in the hands of the few.

On a semi-related note, if you have the time to watch it (it's roughly 2 hours long, but it stays interesting throughout IMO), I can recommend this video, it's a conversation between Yanis Varoufakis and Noam Chomsky, it helped me develop a further understanding of the problems in the EU, and the issues that come from unelected bodies taking over our democracies:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2WG-uEND74E

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#20

Post by caconym_ »

I may be reading this too late at night, but the theory seems to be that our benevolent, perfectly logical Ivy League-educated overlords regrettably have to break a few eggs to make a delicious omelette of economic prosperity for all, and those broken eggs are enough to make people throw up their hands and vote for Trump/Brexit/whatever just for a chance to cling to the present, the good old days, at the expense of that shining, golden future.

I have a feeling that people are actually pissed off because they don't think the established elite are generally benevolent, but rather that they act in their own interests at the expense of the prosperity of the middle and lower classes. Whether this is true is beyond the scope of this comment, but any discussion of this seemingly relevant alternate theory is conspicuously absent from the article.

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