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China’s tyranny of characters

economist.com

11–20 of 96 posts

Re: China’s tyranny of characters

#11

Out of curiosity, how do writers deal with dialog with Chinese characters? It seems like characters would give the meaning but not the voice.

Can you elaborate, because I don't understand what you mean. Is it because you think they're ideographs that have no corresponding phonemes? They do. Every character is a syllable complete with a tone.

It's fairly common in English for authors to give phonetic spellings in dialog, to make things seem more "real" or to indicate accents. To pick a random line from my favorite book, "What for? You caint do nothin for it." I'm not sure if that's what OP is asking, but I'm actually curious how you would indicate the same effect (essentially, encoding nonstandard pronunciation in a comprehensible way).

Re: China’s tyranny of characters

#12

In Hong Kong, I sometimes see peoples screens when I'm using public transport. WhatsApp audio recordings are very popular, sometimes I can see the entire conversation is just audio recordings back and forth. Other times it's Chinese (I can't differentiate which), sometimes English, often a mix. I've only seen someone drawing characters with his finger once.

Keep an eye out for either Pinyin or Zhuyin. I believe they are somewhat common for texting purposes. You input this stuff and your device starts displaying characters for you to pick from avoiding the slower process of actually drawing characters.

Links for those unfamiliar with those two things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo

Re: China’s tyranny of characters

#13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate, because I don't understand what you mean. Is it because you think they're ideographs that have no corresponding phonemes? They do. Every character is a syllable complete with a tone.

It's fairly common in English for authors to give phonetic spellings in dialog, to make things seem more "real" or to indicate accents. To pick a random line from my favorite book, "What for? You caint do nothin for it." I'm not sure if that's what OP is asking, but I'm actually curious how you would indicate the same effect (essentially, encoding nonstandard pronunciation in a comprehensible way).

Maybe you and the original commenter mean to refer to "dialect" rather than "dialog"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_dialect

Re: China’s tyranny of characters

#15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate, because I don't understand what you mean. Is it because you think they're ideographs that have no corresponding phonemes? They do. Every character is a syllable complete with a tone.

It's fairly common in English for authors to give phonetic spellings in dialog, to make things seem more "real" or to indicate accents. To pick a random line from my favorite book, "What for? You caint do nothin for it." I'm not sure if that's what OP is asking, but I'm actually curious how you would indicate the same effect (essentially, encoding nonstandard pronunciation in a comprehensible way).

You can convey provincial language through different diction, and a different frequency of usage of certain words, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence-final_particle

Re: China’s tyranny of characters

#16
> But central authorities are also now worried about any regional languages (which it insists on calling dialects) among the Han majority

It's not as clear cut that variations of Chinese are languages and not dialects as the economist makes it out. This is very similar to arabic. Wikipedia for instance also calls them dialects. This is very different from Uighur and Tibetan which are pretty clear cut separate languages, but which are intermingled here in this article.

Re: China’s tyranny of characters

#17

In Hong Kong, I sometimes see peoples screens when I'm using public transport. WhatsApp audio recordings are very popular, sometimes I can see the entire conversation is just audio recordings back and forth. Other times it's Chinese (I can't differentiate which), sometimes English, often a mix. I've only seen someone drawing characters with his finger once.

Keep an eye out for either Pinyin or Zhuyin. I believe they are somewhat common for texting purposes. You input this stuff and your device starts displaying characters for you to pick from avoiding the slower process of actually drawing characters. Links for those unfamiliar with those two things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo

I guess I've just been assuming any Roman characters are English, some definitely might be Pinyin. I generally try not to stare at peoples screens for too long haha. I did an intro to Chinese (Mandarin) class a few years ago so I'm aware of Pinyin but have forgotten almost everything (except some of the bits I found particularly interesting like word order for times and places, how numbers are represented and a few other things).

Re: China’s tyranny of characters

#18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate, because I don't understand what you mean. Is it because you think they're ideographs that have no corresponding phonemes? They do. Every character is a syllable complete with a tone.

It's fairly common in English for authors to give phonetic spellings in dialog, to make things seem more "real" or to indicate accents. To pick a random line from my favorite book, "What for? You caint do nothin for it." I'm not sure if that's what OP is asking, but I'm actually curious how you would indicate the same effect (essentially, encoding nonstandard pronunciation in a comprehensible way).

As far as we can tell, all writing systems with independent origins started out as logographs that where stylized representations of the words, and then they started to change by adapting the rebus principle--basically, puns based on homonyms rather than their abstract representation. Egyptian, Sumerian, Mayan, and Japanese all made translations thence into syllabaries, whereas Chinese remained primarily logographic. Egyptian was borrowed into Phoenician as an abjad (like an alphabet, but no vowels), whence the Greeks added vowels as separate letters, and the Indians readded vowels by modifying the base characters (known as an abiguda), and further complicated the system by stacking the consonant clusters on top of each other.

Chinese can represent phonetic systems by a similar rebus principle. One crucial difference is that syllabaries and abigudas tend to work on having one character per consonant-vowel pair, which works poorly on languages like English where consonant clusters can get atrocious (strangsts: 1 vowel, 8 consonants). Many languages tend to limit themselves to CV or CVC (which can be handled by special rules like C₁V₁ + C₂V₁ really means CVC, e.g., Mayan), so it's not so much a problem unless you're trying to transliterate completely different languages. Of course, Latin script has its own problems in transliteration: it's atonal, it relies on voiced/voiceless distinctions (Chinese uses aspirated/unaspirated primarily!), and good luck if you have languages that have four sounds we'd analyze as "h."

I'll point out that Chinese script has been used to write other languages--most notably Japanese, Korean, and Mongolian, none of which are related to the Chinese languages.

Another problem with Chinese is that, because you can write the same sound many different ways, you can make mere phonetic transcription a political deal. A transcription might happen upon the character for "small" or "stupid" or "backwards," which might not go over well if it's someone's personal name.

Re: China’s tyranny of characters

#19

Out of curiosity, how do writers deal with dialog with Chinese characters? It seems like characters would give the meaning but not the voice.

> It seems like characters would give the meaning but not the voice.

You'd be surprised. It's easy enough for a writer to distinguish dialog spoken by a country bumpkin vs a sophisticated urbanite or between a ruler and a peasant because they have a different set of vocab and there are Chinese characters for most of the vocab that the different speakers will use.

Re: China’s tyranny of characters

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep an eye out for either Pinyin or Zhuyin. I believe they are somewhat common for texting purposes. You input this stuff and your device starts displaying characters for you to pick from avoiding the slower process of actually drawing characters. Links for those unfamiliar with those two things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo

I guess I've just been assuming any Roman characters are English, some definitely might be Pinyin. I generally try not to stare at peoples screens for too long haha. I did an intro to Chinese (Mandarin) class a few years ago so I'm aware of Pinyin but have forgotten almost everything (except some of the bits I found particularly interesting like word order for times and places, how numbers are represented and a few o…

This is a useful reference for hanyu pinyin/tones: http://lost-theory.org/chinese/phonetics/
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