Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World • Hacker News Board

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#11

Post by lostlogin » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:38 AM UTC

dschiptsov wrote: post #3

Why should people trust any government in the first place? Governments nowadays came to replace institutions of organized religions as the way to gain a high social status and security, and hence became as bloated, inefficient and corrupted as old, unreformed churches of the past. No sane people would 'trust' such social formations which sole purpose is self preservation and parasitic growth.

I think you need to look at "Churches of the past" a little harder. Churches had their time and while we haven't managed to get rid of them yet, we are a lot better of with a separation between them and the state.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#12

Post by lostlogin » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:40 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #9

keithpeter wrote: post #5

>> Edelman said that people tend to trust businesses more than governments, in part because “business gets stuff done” while government is seen as “incapable.” People trust technology companies in particular because “they deliver value.” UK Brexit vote: most (not all) business leaders were advising a remain vote. Apart from the 'immigration' trigger, the 'take back control' trigger does come up in my conversations wi…

The latest plan seems to be to cut corporate taxes to try to stop the larger companies from leaving the UK, and possibly to attract new ones. The race to the bottom started with Ireland, suggestions are to cut the tax to 15% in the rest of the UK, with some voices pushing for 10% or even 5% corporate tax. Of course this has nothing to do with using the opportunity created by the brexit power vacuum to reward some spe…

> The latest plan seems to be to cut corporate taxes to try to stop the larger companies from leaving the UK, and possibly to attract new ones. < The same taxes that the larger corporates avoid in the first place? This seems a flawed plan.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#13

Post by DavidHm » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:40 AM UTC

pilsetnieks wrote: post #10

danieltillett wrote: post #8

This just the masses realising that they have been decapitated. In all western countries the intelligent are identified at a young age and brought into the ruling class via education. There is no one left to speak for the interests of the bottom 90% nor formulate a plan to change the status quo. Faced with this it is not surprising that the masses get restless and thrash out at any symbol of authority no matter the c…

So you're saying that the masses are dumb, and the ruling elites are smart?

I think that is what he is saying.

Though he is saying that the ruling elites are ruling because they are smart, and not that the ruling elites are smart because they are ruling.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#14

Post by danieltillett » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:40 AM UTC

pilsetnieks wrote: post #10

danieltillett wrote: post #8

This just the masses realising that they have been decapitated. In all western countries the intelligent are identified at a young age and brought into the ruling class via education. There is no one left to speak for the interests of the bottom 90% nor formulate a plan to change the status quo. Faced with this it is not surprising that the masses get restless and thrash out at any symbol of authority no matter the c…

So you're saying that the masses are dumb, and the ruling elites are smart?

Yes. They know they have been conned, but they don't know how to fight the elites. They are strong, but leaderless and so are left with only the Sampson option.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#15

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:43 AM UTC

If with 'around the world' they intend to mean 'The USA and the UK' then I'm all in agreement.

But the rest of the world is not that much different from 12 months ago.

The article sugggests strongly that these other countries had a completely different view of their governments in the recent past but I see very little evidence of that.

But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) there definitely is a populist shift in progress.

The French, the Italians, the Russians and even the Dutch have had a substantial trust issue with their governments as long as I've been alive, I don't know enough about the local politics of a lot of the other countries listed there but I suspect that given the fact that none of the ones that I am familiar with would warrant the label 'collapse' that it is not as alarmist as the title would have you believe.

What is happening is that there is a slow but steady push towards more nationalist representation in the various parliaments and this is a source for concern.

And this is all not to say that a Trump presidency and an exit of the UK from the EU can't/won't do plenty of damage, but with some luck they will cause some real political reform in those two countries.

It's either that or a very good chance of serious economic upheaval.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#16

Post by mrmffh » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:44 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #9

keithpeter wrote: post #5

>> Edelman said that people tend to trust businesses more than governments, in part because “business gets stuff done” while government is seen as “incapable.” People trust technology companies in particular because “they deliver value.” UK Brexit vote: most (not all) business leaders were advising a remain vote. Apart from the 'immigration' trigger, the 'take back control' trigger does come up in my conversations wi…

The latest plan seems to be to cut corporate taxes to try to stop the larger companies from leaving the UK, and possibly to attract new ones. The race to the bottom started with Ireland, suggestions are to cut the tax to 15% in the rest of the UK, with some voices pushing for 10% or even 5% corporate tax. Of course this has nothing to do with using the opportunity created by the brexit power vacuum to reward some spe…

Race to the bottom (i.e. competition) is a good thing, it reduces waste and inefficiency.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#17

Post by danieltillett » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:45 AM UTC

DavidHm wrote: post #13

pilsetnieks wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that the masses are dumb, and the ruling elites are smart?

I think that is what he is saying. Though he is saying that the ruling elites are ruling because they are smart, and not that the ruling elites are smart because they are ruling.

Exactly. If you left the ruling elite to breed amoungst themselves you would end up with something like the Russian nobility - idiotic and doomed.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#18

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:46 AM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #11

dschiptsov wrote: post #3

Why should people trust any government in the first place? Governments nowadays came to replace institutions of organized religions as the way to gain a high social status and security, and hence became as bloated, inefficient and corrupted as old, unreformed churches of the past. No sane people would 'trust' such social formations which sole purpose is self preservation and parasitic growth.

I think you need to look at "Churches of the past" a little harder. Churches had their time and while we haven't managed to get rid of them yet, we are a lot better of with a separation between them and the state.

[deleted]

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#19

Post by cm3 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:49 AM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #8

This just the masses realising that they have been decapitated. In all western countries the intelligent are identified at a young age and brought into the ruling class via education. There is no one left to speak for the interests of the bottom 90% nor formulate a plan to change the status quo. Faced with this it is not surprising that the masses get restless and thrash out at any symbol of authority no matter the c…

I find that hard to believe. Those in power, which you classify as (more) intelligent, were afraid of their peer Yanis Varoufakis so much that they did everything to make him leave. They didn't understand his proposals (models) because the other finance ministers missed vital economic knowledge, or that's how it seems to me at least.

If I looked for it, I could name many not-so-intelligent and uneducated ministers all around the world. We can start by naming plagiarized PhDs in Germany, including (ironically) one education minister.

However, if by 'ruling class' you don't necessarily mean the government, then maybe you're right. If that's what you're saying, then the government would be ruled by the economy which would be controlled by those who were put on such a track at a young age.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#20

Post by narrator » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:49 AM UTC

pilsetnieks wrote: post #10

danieltillett wrote: post #8

This just the masses realising that they have been decapitated. In all western countries the intelligent are identified at a young age and brought into the ruling class via education. There is no one left to speak for the interests of the bottom 90% nor formulate a plan to change the status quo. Faced with this it is not surprising that the masses get restless and thrash out at any symbol of authority no matter the c…

So you're saying that the masses are dumb, and the ruling elites are smart?

It's not so much that the masses are dumb, but that propaganda techniques have been so refined and optimized that people have no idea who or what they have to fight to get what they want.

There are a lot of ideological systems that are created simply to misdirect the public's attention away from actual important issues and toward infighting or intellectual dead ends or towards the goals of the propagandists.

Let me give you one example: the murder rate in the US is the lowest its been since 1963. The way the media directs the public's attention and magnifies the coverage of the violence that does happen makes the public think that there's a huge terrorism, crime and gun violence crisis.

Anyone who wants to actually figure out what is going on just needs to look at the numerical data, but that's boring. Instead political life is a bunch of people reposting whatever article got published today to freak the public out or very narrowly guide them into strengthening their belief in a particular ideological narrative.

People aren't stupid, but given limited information they are easily influenced.