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YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

arstechnica.com

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Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#11

Post by aphextron »

logicallee wrote: post #5

I liked it better when Y Combinator was giving this kind of money[1] out to founders who could use it to build a business. Old text: "In 2005, Y Combinator developed a new model of startup funding. Twice a year we invest a small amount of money (average $18k) in a large number of startups (currently 82)" I note that $2k/month for 12 months is $24k, so that's more than their old investment size. Meanwhile, now, it's c…

Agreed. I'm a broke developer who would love nothing more than a small living stipend to work on my own projects and contribute to open source. If I had just enough to get by and be able to code all day I would be so happy.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#12

Post by TheCowboy »

karmicthreat wrote: post #7
TheCowboy wrote: post #3

Would individuals be restricted from using any government social welfare programs during this period? Many advocates propose funding basic income by disbanding current safety nets. If recipients are living in public housing, collecting food stamps, accepting federal student loans, or any other form of indirect government aid, then it skews the results.

It might skew it, but YC is probably trying to answer a more fundamental question. If people are provided a minimum lifestyle what will they do? I don't think anyone really knows if it will be a golden age of entrepreneurs and self improvement. Or if people will just sit on the couch, have kids till they can't afford them, become addicted to drugs.

I understand this, but ignoring what I mentioned means the question becomes, "What would people, who are provided a basic income in addition to basic government services, do?"

For example, an important question is if the implementation would require disbanding Obamacare, reverting to the old system, etc. The ability to obtain healthcare can sway a lot of outcomes. I might have pursued a more entrepreneurial path in the past if I had an option of basic income in addition to healthcare.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#13

Post by godzillabrennus »

logicallee wrote: post #5

I liked it better when Y Combinator was giving this kind of money[1] out to founders who could use it to build a business. Old text: "In 2005, Y Combinator developed a new model of startup funding. Twice a year we invest a small amount of money (average $18k) in a large number of startups (currently 82)" I note that $2k/month for 12 months is $24k, so that's more than their old investment size. Meanwhile, now, it's c…

YC is still making these investments, they are simultaneous working to save the middle class because without that group of people we will have a lot less startups. I think what they are trying is important enough to risk some cash on and I'm eager to see how it pans out over the next couple of years.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#14

Post by jlg23 »

aphextron wrote: post #11
logicallee wrote: post #5

I liked it better when Y Combinator was giving this kind of money[1] out to founders who could use it to build a business. Old text: "In 2005, Y Combinator developed a new model of startup funding. Twice a year we invest a small amount of money (average $18k) in a large number of startups (currently 82)" I note that $2k/month for 12 months is $24k, so that's more than their old investment size. Meanwhile, now, it's c…

Agreed. I'm a broke developer who would love nothing more than a small living stipend to work on my own projects and contribute to open source. If I had just enough to get by and be able to code all day I would be so happy.

So basically you are one who would benefit from a basic income. Why is a "living stipend to work on [your] own projects" better than a basic income which too would allow you to work on your own projects?

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#15

Post by daveguy »

karmicthreat wrote: post #7
TheCowboy wrote: post #3

Would individuals be restricted from using any government social welfare programs during this period? Many advocates propose funding basic income by disbanding current safety nets. If recipients are living in public housing, collecting food stamps, accepting federal student loans, or any other form of indirect government aid, then it skews the results.

It might skew it, but YC is probably trying to answer a more fundamental question. If people are provided a minimum lifestyle what will they do? I don't think anyone really knows if it will be a golden age of entrepreneurs and self improvement. Or if people will just sit on the couch, have kids till they can't afford them, become addicted to drugs.

The former. The latter is a racist caricature of welfare.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#16

Post by logicallee »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #13
logicallee wrote: post #5

I liked it better when Y Combinator was giving this kind of money[1] out to founders who could use it to build a business. Old text: "In 2005, Y Combinator developed a new model of startup funding. Twice a year we invest a small amount of money (average $18k) in a large number of startups (currently 82)" I note that $2k/month for 12 months is $24k, so that's more than their old investment size. Meanwhile, now, it's c…

YC is still making these investments, they are simultaneous working to save the middle class because without that group of people we will have a lot less startups. I think what they are trying is important enough to risk some cash on and I'm eager to see how it pans out over the next couple of years.

if it were making such investments in the same spirit as before, it wouldn't also call $120K a "small amount of money" on its front page. I think what I object to is the silent change from investing an average of $18K to investing $120K and still calling the latter a small amount of money. It's really not.

also let's be clear: from an investment standpoint, investing $12K instead of $120K means that startups can do ten times worse while still being a free investment. put another way: a tenth as many need to succeed to be free. People behave very differently under such conditions of risk!

Also investing $12K made them an investor of first, last, and only resort for startups that needed that. sorry, anecdotally this is actual fact.

granted, this does not describe most startups, just a few.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#17

Post by gjkood »

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Along with the daily fish, does it makes sense to provide some sort of vocational training that an otherwise healthy person can take advantage of?

If a person was not able to take advantage of early education for whatever reason, but is currently physically healthy, there is still opportunity to provide for himself and his family by learning some vocational skills.

Choosing Oakland in particular has interesting connotations, considering that it is a major industrial center where there may be lots of opportunity for skilled workers.

Maybe even a reversal of the automation movement in favor of using basic labor for many repetitive tasks in order to achieve this altruistic goal.

Of course, there are still a great many people who truly could take advantage of the basic income experiment because their other options are severely limited for whatever reason.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#18

Post by logicallee »

jlg23 wrote: post #14
aphextron wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I'm a broke developer who would love nothing more than a small living stipend to work on my own projects and contribute to open source. If I had just enough to get by and be able to code all day I would be so happy.

So basically you are one who would benefit from a basic income. Why is a "living stipend to work on [your] own projects" better than a basic income which too would allow you to work on your own projects?

I hope with a little thought, you can come to see the difference between formally investing in a startup which is trying to get off the ground, and handing someone an income no questions asked...

To put it in simple terms, you get what you pay for. If you invest in someone's startups, they'll deliver a startup (or fail); if you invest in someone's lifestyle, they'll deliver a lifestyle (or fail).

It's what makes a broke college student asking their parents for some money different from a homeless person who has just spent the money he had left on alcohol, asking for some money.

I am probably running a high risk of being misinterpreted. When a programmer becomes homeless and needs money, then that money is different from when someone who got out of prison for beating someone up has no money.

basic income makes it sound like the latter; whereas building a business is a lot more like the former.

you can disagree, but please do so eloquently.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#19

Post by bryanlarsen »

jasonwen wrote: post #9

One year is too limited in my opinion. If you want to see what people will do with basic income, you have to give them the feeling the money is near infinite. One year looks to me its not enough to drop everything, as you will know it will soon come to an end. The paychological barrier for me would be at least 5+ years. Then again if I know it will come to an end in xx years, I will feel more inclined to work harder.…

I'm sure they're well aware that a one year test won't answer a lot of questions. But it will answer some, and it will probably help them set up a better experiment for the future.

And the same criticism could be levelled at a 5 year experiment. I think that eventually they're going to have to do a lifelong experiment, buying annuities from a reputable insurance company for the recipients. That's going to be expensive, so make sure you have the experiment set up right before you do it.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#20

Post by pekko »

jasonwen wrote: post #9

One year is too limited in my opinion. If you want to see what people will do with basic income, you have to give them the feeling the money is near infinite. One year looks to me its not enough to drop everything, as you will know it will soon come to an end. The paychological barrier for me would be at least 5+ years. Then again if I know it will come to an end in xx years, I will feel more inclined to work harder.…

See http://blog.ycombinator.com/moving-forward-on-basic-income: this one-year study is just a pilot, it works as a preparation for a longer-term one.
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