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US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

bbc.com

11–20 of 53 posts

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#11
post #5

For something that involves the US gov, anthrax, and a crowded public place, that was remarkably ethical. Clickbaity title IMO, but I'm not sure what to suggest. I think the current title suggests malice on the part of the US gov, but they were actually just doing some interesting research.

NYC, DC, and Oklahoma City, among other places, have hosted a number of trials like this. Having just attended a conference on atmospheric transport and dispersion [0], I know multiple organizations use the resulting data to validate their transport models.

Subways are really interesting beasts from the point of view of people who try to model the transport and fate of airborne materials. The trains themselves pump material through the tubes, the cars entrain material in their wake, and the cars capture and carry material along with the passengers (meaning you can disperse material even after a car comes out from underground). All this is intermittent and bi-directional, following the train schedules. And then it's all tightly coupled to the city's above-ground airflow patterns, both because the train stations have massive ventilation exchange with the outdoors, and because there can be passive vents at street level.

Particles add another layer to the problem. As the article states, they deposit out of the air, and they can resuspend, e.g., due to human activity. They can also hitch a ride on people and things. They also get captured in ventilation system filters. Finally the rates at which they do all these things depends strongly on the particle size -- and the particle size can change due to things like coagulation.

[0] http://camp.cos.gmu.edu/20th-announcement.html

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#12

I appreciate the research, but I'm not sure what could possible be done to change the situation materially. "Making more accurate contamination maps" strikes me as only useful in a really best case scenario.

Better than doing nothing I suppose. Also, sometimes the research needs to be done to know whether we can do nothing or whether we can.

A very fair point, but in this case installing filters or a reasonable hope for decontamination isn't really an option; the only thing we can do is prevent, detect, and evacuate.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#13
post #4

...man, I was all ready to get out the pitchforks in response to "bioterror" research in a public place, but it turns out it's more "fluid dynamics research prompted by the risk of particulate bioweapons". It's not a clickbait title, but it asymptotically approaches one.

If it's written by BBC, it's probably not going to be something very damning about the U.S. government, quite the contrary.

Let us not make wide sweeping statements about the journalistic relationship between one of the world's largest news organizations and one of the world's largest nations. Seems a bit blunt.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#14
post #2

This is super important research, due to what the article calls, "low security threshold and high passenger count". I wish the research results would be given to the public, though I understand why we won't see the results for some time, or possibly never. It's also kind of scary that their only listed "remediation" is to have more accurate contamination maps. It really hits home the concept that, once a bad guy actu…

Part of the idea behind "more accurate contamination maps" is to mobilize the appropriate response -- personnel, drugs, and so on. So it isn't just about knowing where to clean up (although it involves that, too).

These sorts of tests also aim at helping guide the first response. For a long time, there was an ongoing debate about the proper response to an attack on a subway (it's probably still going on, but I haven't talked with this crowd in a few years). For example, suppose a CCTV spots a bunch of passengers going down in a particular terminal. Should you shut down the ventilation system, in order to try to contain the material? Or should you crank up the system, in order to dilute the hazardous material? How should those decisions change depending on the type of material, the amount released, the atmospheric conditions, and the timing of the response? Should you stop all trains in the tunnels, or should you run them to the nearest station for evacuation? All of this requires estimating potential health impacts, to those on the platform, in the rest of the system, and downwind of the affected stations.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#15
post #4

...man, I was all ready to get out the pitchforks in response to "bioterror" research in a public place, but it turns out it's more "fluid dynamics research prompted by the risk of particulate bioweapons". It's not a clickbait title, but it asymptotically approaches one.

If it's written by BBC, it's probably not going to be something very damning about the U.S. government, quite the contrary.

The highest profile US headline on the BBC front page right now is "US warned over high poverty by IMF", so I don't think they have a problem being critical.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better than doing nothing I suppose. Also, sometimes the research needs to be done to know whether we can do nothing or whether we can.

A very fair point, but in this case installing filters or a reasonable hope for decontamination isn't really an option; the only thing we can do is prevent, detect, and evacuate.

Which makes faster detection a huge deal - I'd imagine one of the conclusions drawn from the results will be how best to detect ASAP without putting sensors literally everywhere.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#18
post #2

This is super important research, due to what the article calls, "low security threshold and high passenger count". I wish the research results would be given to the public, though I understand why we won't see the results for some time, or possibly never. It's also kind of scary that their only listed "remediation" is to have more accurate contamination maps. It really hits home the concept that, once a bad guy actu…

Part of the idea behind "more accurate contamination maps" is to mobilize the appropriate response -- personnel, drugs, and so on. So it isn't just about knowing where to clean up (although it involves that, too). These sorts of tests also aim at helping guide the first response. For a long time, there was an ongoing debate about the proper response to an attack on a subway (it's probably still going on, but I haven'…

> ...there was an ongoing debate about the proper response...

I don't know about subway specifics, but the matter was settled a long time ago for buildings - and it didn't take long to arrive at the conclusion. Containment is the policy. The first thing that happens when any toxic substance is suspected, in a security conscious facility, is the shutdown of HVAC followed by the restriction of uncontrolled movement (elevators sent home, security posted in stairwell, etc). Even in areas equipped with filtration systems (like mail rooms). I've never heard anyone suggest dilution, you'd have to have NBC sensors that can instantly detect every toxic substance in order to avoid unknowingly spreading anthrax piggybacked on an irritant like CS. Such sensors do not exist.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#19
I am curious to find out how many reports they got from riders who saw the researchers. I know that if I saw someone releasing gas like in the picture in the article, I'd quickly find someone to talk to about it.

That said, hopefully they can validate models which will provide optimum locations for detectors, as well as action plans once a detection occurs, such as kill all cars near the detection and change venting airflows.

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